The riff in The Rolling Stones’ “Bitch” promises so much, yet the song never really goes anywhere. It’s like Otis Redding’s “I Can’t Turn You Loose” minus the repeating crescendo and the supercharged finale (go to the 1:35 mark of the following clip, if you don’t know what I’m talking about).
After a while, “Bitch”, as great as that riff is, just sits there. The band tries to crank it up to a new level, but they’ve got no firm gimmick, like Otis’ repeating climb. “Bitch” just dies at the finish line. It’s not a bad song – don’t get me wrong – but it’s nohwere near as great as it initially promises. I think even our most ardent Stones fans will give me that much.
On the other hand, there are songs that don’t start out like much but then pick it up and become something special. The following song is one that comes to mind for me.
Truth be told, I don’t even like this song a lot – and on a visceral level I like it less than I do “Bitch” – but it builds to something that I find worthwhile and, when I have the patience to listen through the end, more satisfying than the Stones’ 1-riff romp. Hear me out.
From the beginning of XTC’s “No Language in Their Lungs” I quickly understand all the things that some folks don’t like about this band that I hold dearly: the forced off-kilter riffs and strangled phrasing, the complete lack of blues and other pre-rock traditions, that hideous blouse that Partridge wore for 85% of the band’s filmed live performances… For years I usually lifted the needle over this track and just jumped ahead to side 2. (Pince Nez me if you must, but it is an end-of-side-1 number, right? It’s been a while since I’ve listened to Black Sea on anything but my Japanese import CD, which replicated the original packaging of the album – in miniature, as only the Japanese would take the time to do.) Until the little instrumental break/subtle guitar solo that precedes the middle eighth, this song is painful for me to sit through. Then the lyrics of the middle eighth start to pile up and capture my attention more than they had during the opening verses, but even then I’m not sold on the song. Finally, coming out of the middle eighth there’s that climbing part (at 2:50 in the YouTube clip), at which point all the song has been working toward starts to gel for me. There’s not much more to the song after that, which is a good thing.
My point here, believe it or not, is not to ask you to agree or disagree with my feelings about these songs and the shortcomings and strengths that I’ve outlined. If you care to agree or disagree, that’s fine, but I’m hoping to hear from you on your own “turtle” and “hare” songs. FOR ME, “Bitch” is the hare and “No Language in Our Lungs” is the turtle. I’m curious to hear if you ever think of songs – and songs – in these terms and how you might relate these feelings.
I look forward to your tales.
Hare: Stones, “Can’t You Hear Me Knocking”
Turtle: Beatles, “Hey Jude”
Gee whiz, Mr. Mod. Your psyche retains all of its oblique angles to mine, decade in, decade out. Reassuring, in a way. That Stones clip, far more than the original song, is like a brief episode of “Exhibit Your Symptom” of the dislikability of that band. Everyone at their least impressive and most arrogant. Richard as a wind-up-monkey of middling blues riffs goes over the top with the combo clear guitar and face abuse. Then the Otis, not a fave song of his for me, shows even the go go dancers showing up the Stones for sheer hard work and energy. Then the XTC thing. The only album I bought of theirs on lp, I don’t mind the song, but it’s so non-musical here. I never liked the brittleness of their sound, the lack of oomph and bottom. And his vocals have always made me listen to their songs while sitting on my slapping hand to keep it from twitching. It’s like he’s making a silly voice during sound check, only he’s serious. Ugh. I do see what you’re saying about the turtle aspect, but it only saves this song back to grade B status for me.
Anyhow, a great turtle for me is Captain Beefheart’s Ice Rose. Instrumental, featuring a trombone, of all things. Yet it blossoms, and ends up rocking out. And my mind keeps running to things like Iggy Pop’s “The Passenger” or that amazing Rolling Thunder version of “Shelter From the Storm.” Zappa’s “Watermelon In Easter Hay” is one of those, too. Songs that repeat a non remarkable element endlessly, and yet evolve and kick ass. Are they turtles? Sort of millipedes, with all those little segments all the same? I’ll have to ponder this one some more…
I’ve always thought The Stones could have made Bitch a little shorter, but it’s still not a song that doesn’t go anywhere. That Marquee Club video doesn’t help prove my point well, but that was a filming for TV that really didn’t have much of an audience. I like this one from 72 more, I think it’s Ft. Worth or Philly. I can’t remember and don’t want to look it up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euOrnZZkzKg
Otis was smart and made his short little idea two minutes long. I saw the Stones do Can’t Turn You Loose, and it was pretty cool. It wasn’t nearly as long as this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrB7d2nPHGk
I thought the XTC song sucked hard. Was there a riff of some sort? I can see how it would be a turtle song, because it’s not memorable at all.
So my hare song would be My Sharona. I loved it immensely before it ever finished the first time I heard it. I still remember that, too. I was with my mom. But everyone loved it too much, and by the end of the week, I hated it. Though I have to admit, last time I heard it I thought it was great again, so that’s good.
My turtle song is Randy Described Eternity by Built to Spill. It should be too slow and too jam bandy for my tastes, but it really just slowly stuck with me and I think it’s a great song.
A major turtle that comes to mind is Radio Cure by Wilco. It’s one of the few truely great songs from Yankee Foxtrot Hotel (that albums really overrated). Most of the song is a moody, boring atmospheric verse, but then that really great hook comes in when Tweedy starts singing “Oh distance has no way…”
As for a hare, a good example of one is Siberian Khatru, which has that awesome guitar opening but then ends up going nowhere for the whole of 8 minutes (like most Yes songs!)
Good ones, Townspeople! Keep ’em coming. I really appreciate your ability to get over my particular choices and share your own tales.
The Church are a band that comes to mine songs have elements that I should like but I am either bored before they arrive or lulled into a coma by the end.
the ultimate hare: “Rebel Rebel”
Kickass riff, but the rest of the song just kind of sits there.
I should probably listen to it again before suggesting it in case I’m misremembering how it turns out, but a newer thread brought to mind “Heart of the Sunrise” by Yes for a ‘hare’ song. Comes flying out of the gate, but doesn’t have anything left after that for the rest of the song.
“Complicated Game” seems like another ‘turtle’ song by XTC that also works for me. Built To Spill is mentioned above, and it at least feels like they probably have a few of these. “In Your Mind” might be one of the shorter songs to effectively pull off the same trick.
Generally, I think I tend to like songs in the tortoise style a little more. To the extent that it’s disappointing to hear a song that starts off with a great riff and then dies, it might be even more rewarding to hear a song for the first time and realize halfway through, while you’ve only been partly paying attention, that it’s turned into something great. One of those songs you have to immediately play again because you want to hear how it got there. Am I right in thinking that a lot of songs that fall into this kind of category might also get the “cinematic” tag thrown on them?
Dr. Mod,
You referred to the “middle 8th” of a song?
I call it the “middle eight” at rehersals and get laughed at and told that it’s the “bridge”. (clarification, new thread?)
I know this was not the point of the tortoise/hare question, but you sure did nail the reason/s we XTC haters are XTC haters. They are fucking dreadful, trying too hard not to be The Beatles, all herky jerky and blouse-y.
hare: My Bloody Valentine kills it in most of their intros, then manages to not have any substantial verses or choruses.
tortoise: Tortoise (kidding/not kidding)
no really: All Bob Dylan songs if you’re not a
“lyric-listener”
stephen malkmus is a master of the tortoise:
the hexx, 1% of 1, no more shoes, all brilliant tortoise exercises.
songs that run out of steam, huh? the problem is a tough one! we’re talking about songs with kickazz riffs that don’t go nowhere, or make us feel like they last too long. mod, i hear what you’re saying about ‘beeyatch’. but you have stacked the deck in your favor with that marquee club performance. in the studio, they managed to craft it so that it feels like it’s proportioned properly. 2k, i don’t think your houston version makes the argument in favor of bitch too well either, but i do think they maybe had some better drugs that night. the play it with more oomph. and somehow, it seems to make mod’s side of the argument more convincing: because they start at such a high point in that performance, the song has *less* room to grow…less staying power!
and that brings me to some thoughts on this whole “hare” bid-ness: riff songs are *hard* to sustain. anybody who tries to write that kind of song is brave! and if they can pull it off, they’re geniuses in an idiot savant sort of way that you’ve either *got* or ya don’t.
i think brother jt is a master at it. so many of his songs take a single riff, drive it into the ground, and somehow leave me wanting more at the end, even though they’ve been playing for 7 minutes. “just 14” is a perfect example. my GOD…it STARTS like the show is over and we’re gonna have one last rave up. but by the end, we’re frothing at the mouth like animals.
there you go talking about your own ilk again.
aren’t you the only guy ever to post his band flyer here?
shawnkilroy wrote:
Do you want me to kick the asses of these bully bandmates of your’s? Just say the word. Actually, in conversation with my bandmates I just call it the “break,” but I was afraid some bully around here would give me a hard time for being so unspecific.
Alexmagic, thanks for the gentle way in whcih you reminded me that this post should have used “tortoise” rather than “turtle.” It is a tortoise in the fable, right? I’d like to say I was using a more accurate Aramaic translation.
Saturnismine wrote:
I honestly thought that version was more interesting than the studio version. I dig their Look in it and the film quality. It gives me something to think about while I dread the “hey-yey-yey-yey hey-yey” part that eventually enters as a new dynamic element.
It is difficult to sustain a good riff, but being able to raise the ante some way helps. “No Fun” would be a very good song without the solo at the end; with the solo it’s outstanding. Like “Bitch”, I think The Great 48’s citation of “Rebel Rebel” fails because Bowie can’t find a way to raise the drama. The shouting, sped up verse toward the end is the best he can do. Imagine how much better that song would be (and I do love that song despite its shortcomings) if there’d been a breakdown of some sort followed by the introduction of a new guitar that plays off the main riff. Dave Gregory from XTC would have known what to do – same for one of those ’70s-era Beefheart guitarists.
so “look” is a determining factor in whether or not a riff based song is effective? you know i’m always up for a discussion of *look*, but sheesh.
mod, 2k, and others who dig the stones: would you prefer “live with me”, or does it suffer from the same problems as bitch?
i’m not so sure i ever get bored with rebel-rebel. never would’ve thought of it as a hare, let alone the “ultimate” example. maybe my definition’s off.
i agree with 2k regarding the xtc example, by the way. snore.
mod, what say you about the malkmus tunes i’ve i.d.’d? i’m curious.
kilroy, maybe i shouldn’t be so ‘ilky’, so self-referential. i tend to relate to ideas best through my own experiences, though. i hope, at least, i’m bringing experiences to bear in ways that are effective in these very very important discussions.
One way to solve the problem is to keep the songs short, turning the “hare” into a “cheetah” if you will. Randy Newman’s songs are rarely over three minutes long.
Another way to solve the problem is to develop a propulsive rhythm; Krautrock bands were good at this as well as those they influenced like Stereolab.
alex, if anything, I think of “heart of the sunrise” as a tortoise!
i love all the permutations it takes! it’s as if it tricks us into thinking it’s going to be a hare, but 6 minutes later, we’re still entranced.
oh…wait a minute: *I’M* still entranced. I don’t pretend to speak for you. And if you get jagged up by that intro but don’t like the rest, then hey, what can i say? We have different internal rhythms.
this is a great thread. it’s all about one’s own sense of proportion.
reminds me of the fact that Links Linkerson doesn’t like songs that over 3 minutes, or have long solos…He probably has alot more “hares” hoppin’ around in his head than many of us.
I probably have many fewer.
Links, come over to the dark side…join the thread! we NEED your perspective here!!!
Re: Sat’s recent posts:
No, Look is not a determining factor, Saturnismine! I was just noting taht I was not trying to stack the deck against “Bitch” by use of that video. Stop looking for disagreement when we’ve got plenty to go around. You know I’m behind you 98% of the time!
I think “Live With Me” is fantastic. No, I do not think it suffers from what ails “Bitch”. I often get lost following the bass and drums in “Live With Me”, only to snap back into reality by some variation in the guitars or vocals.
I don’t think of the Malkmus songs you cite as tortoises because I dig them from the git-go. They do build nicely and get better as they go along.
Wouldn’t it be nice if Links would share his Billboard-reported industry figures with the public at large?
Mod, don’t worry about my “look” question. I was just joshin’.
re. Live with Me: agreed.
I’m laughing out loud at your Linkerson comment, and now, I am resolved to bringing him into the fold in the new year.
by the way, was that a sleeveless shirt he was wearing under his jacket at JohnnyBrenda’s?
I heard several people within earshot of Links saying “where are the guns?”
“My sentiments exactly”, I thought to myself.
Agree with you on the tortoise Malkmus songs (I really need to check out his solo records). But prog-rock such as Yes, for me, it seems like the band switches to new sections just to keep people from getting bored, so I’m not really sure that’s evidence of their songwriting skills, which this whole tortoise/hare exercise was meant to evaluate, no?
saturn, you keep right on relating to things through your own experience. I really wouldn’t have it any other way.
i, like you, just enjoy bustin chops…
…and you my friend have some nice chops.
maybe a Man-Date is in our future?
I object to the whole idea that songs have to get somewhere. Some songs may want to do that, but if you’ve got a great riff I think you should feel free to repeat it as much as you like and enjoy it for its own sake. (“Got mashed potatoes, ain’t got no t-bone.”)
Repetition is trance-inducing, and you can’t get into much of a trance in a two-and-a-half minute song.
Dr john said:
Let me take this opportunity to announce some news from another list I’m on. Randy Newman is about 95% finished recording a new album of songs (with no movie score attached, just a regular album of songs). He’d like to have it out some time this spring, but Nonesuch is thinking more like fall. I will suggest Cheetahs as a possible album title to his manager.
and dr. j, in the “yes” example in question, their ‘songwriting’ isn’t really what i think is on display because they’ve have different parts. I think the song has a narrative, almost cinematic feel because of those changes and the different colors and textures they bring to each part. it really works for me.
BigSteve, I agree with you, that it’s not necessary for new devices to be added or changes to be introduced. I’ve got no problem with repetition, believe me. But at the same time, not every riff is trance inducing, or is it intended to be. And in many cases, additions, breakdowns, changes in vocal lines *do* sustain a riff that would otherwise run out of steam.
and besides, even a trance state is definitely “somewhere”. i, for one, can get into a trance state as soon as a riff scratches that particular itch in my earbrain. i don’t even need two minutes! time doesn’t even matter where trance states are concerned. 1 minute is the same as an entire album side.
finally, let’s not forget that as this thread is demonstrating quite clearly, we’re never really sure where “somewhere” is. and one listener’s somewhere, is another’s nowhere.
Since I think we’ve been mostly of similar minds in past threads, and because I did admit that I hadn’t heard it in a while and probably should have listened again before suggesting it, I’ll break out my copy and listen to “Heart of the Sunrise” when I get home later, to see if my memory of it is giving the song short shrift.
If it turns out I have been doing it wrong, maybe I can make up for it with a running journal of my impressions of it over the course of its 10+ minutes.
Just back from a few errands and heard a song in the car that seemed to fit in with this thread or, at least, a variant of this thread – songs that start out like a rabbit and are riff-based and are able to maintain the pace, even accelerate it, throughout the song. Like VU’s “Waiting For The Man”.
The thing about Waiting for the man is that there is a narrative to the lyrics. But the conclusion is that the story just described is just one of a theoretically endless series of ‘scoring’ narratives, which adds further justification for the repetitveness of the riff.
Alex, I’ll tell you in advance that I aint gonna jump down your throat if you still think that “sunrise” is a hare. The stuff that comes after that blinder of an intro is a). not for everyone, and b). capable of being its own song, which is, in a way, cheating, right?
kilroy: the man date will happen, but it’s going to have to be this spring. i assume the mantle this semester. ’til then, a thousand little things to do, involving periods, commas, figure numbers and footnotes.
thanks be to mr. mod for setting up rth so that i have a diversion every now and then, and can spit out a post on the power and the glory of rock. otherwise, i’d go insane. ’til then, “…see ya there on the astral plane”.
I’m no expert on the Stones, but in watching that video of “Bitch” that I used th aid in this thread I got to thinking: Is this the last time Jagger ever sounded anything like he does on record in a live performance? Growing up, whenever I heard concerts and bootlegs from the mid-70s to early-80s I was always severely disappointed in the tone of Jagger’s voice, a tone I’d come to think was one of rock’s greatest from listening to their records. When I hear early clips of live Stones, Jagger sounds like Jagger, all nasty, reedy, and singing in a “head” voice. When I hear live recordings a bit after this version of “Bitch” he sounds like a hoarse uncle guesting with his nephew’s band at a Bar Mitzvah.
My take on Siberian Khatru is that it is neither Tortoise nor Hare. It works on so many levels. Within the album it’s succinct as all get-out. And besides it is almost genre-defining prog! The name is funny, the lyrics are meaningless, the arrangements are grand. As for hare, that kick ass opening riff goes, within 15 seconds, into a loopy mellotron whirl that shuts down focus and momentum almost immediately. I like the song for what it is, all the way through, and it is also goofily guileless.
A literal Hare is Sabbath’s Symptom of the Universe. One of the baddest riffs ever played, killer bass and drums entrance – even Ozzy doesn’t ruin it. Each subsequent section of the song is softer, slower. By the end it’s acoustic guitar and claves and what not. But it works. I like it. Does that allow it to be a Hare? I guess not. But it’s something or other, for sure.
A nice Tortoise for me is “Water” from the soundtrack to Car Wash. Nice texture and groove, just keeps doing what you need it to do, never busting out… Nice song.
Black Sabbath’s “The Writ” is a great tortoise.
I’ve been meaning to respond to this. I suspect that the change in Jagger’s live vocals that you’ve heard coincides with his decision to start running around like an aerobics instructor while fronting his band.
Your response was worth the wait, BigSteve!
Big Steve notes:
the change in Jagger’s live vocals that you’ve heard coincides with his decision to start running around like an aerobics instructor while fronting his band.
I say:
Read the article in the New Yorker fashion issue a few years back (somewhere in the last ten years?!) that describes a visit with Jagger to his costumier’s to try on numerous pairs of black,baggy pants and sweats to see how they look when he goes into his Bins Of Steel “Start Me Up” routine. It is embarrassing in a major way. And instructive!
The Bitch riff makes it all worthwhile. One thing that always irks me a little. Mick sings that his heart is beating like a big bass (the fish) drum instead of bass drum (like the instrument). A fish drum?