Feb 202008
You know the rules: one submission at a time, no limit on the number you can submit, last suggestion offered wins a coveted RTH No-Prize! Point of order: I’m looking for artists who folks liked more because they either are/were “crazy,” or because they acted that way.
I’ll start with an obvious one: Brian Wilson.
HVB
p.s.: was Carl Wilson great, or what?
Daniel Johnston
ODB
Good one, alexmagic!
I’ll continue my efforts to get the obvious ones out of the way: Syd Barrett.
Anton Newcombe (Brian Jonestown Massacre)
Charles Manson. He’s not just a delusional, homicidal crank! He made music so mediocre, even a celebrity murder spree couldn’t get his career going.
Roky Erickson
Jandek.
G. G. Allen
Skip Spence
The guy from Moby Grape, who did that Oar album. I’m blanking on his name at the moment.
Shooot, cdm just beat me to Skip Spence!
How about Amy Winehouse? We may have to check back in 2 years to be certain.
Another suggestion on which I seek confirmation: Robyn Hitchcock. Not so much today, I believe, but in the ’80s, didn’t the partially self-promoted perception that he was keee-raaaaay-zeeee draw interest to his work?
Richey Edwards from Manic Street Preachers… yikes. Still missing and/or presumed dead. Known for carving stuff into his arm during interviews. Certifiably disturbed, but Manics had some great songs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/music/sites/manicstreetpreachers/pages/richey_edwards.shtml
Bjork
Screamin’ Jay Hawkins
Peter Green
Wildman Fisher.
We seem to be compiling a list of every crazy we can think of. No one would listen to Fisher if he wasn’t crazy. In fact he wouldn’t have written ‘songs’ if he weren’t crazy. But do people really like Peter Green more because of his problems?
Dennis Wilson
Wesley Willis
Are any of these open to debate, or is the assertion enough to make it true? Just asking.
I like Sun Ra’s Singles collection too, but I’m not sure it’s a good introduction to Ra’s art, as the material collected is somewhat atypical. Fascinating stuff admittedly.
There’s a fine best-of called Greatest Hits – Easy Listening for Intergalactic Travel that I think would be a good place to start. For a single album I’d recommend Lanquidity, or perhaps Heliocentric Worlds 1 and/or 2. Needless to say, there’s a ton of used stuff available, and as far as I can tell all of Ra’s albums have passages of great beauty as well as stretches of messy chaos.
I see what BigSteve is saying re: Peter Green, but where would his legacy be if he had not gone crazy?
Phil Spector
Which one — the assertion that they’re crazy or the assertaion that they’re fans only like them because they’re crazy? Just asking, as well.
I’d actually dispute Amy Winehouse. Substance abuse does not equal insanity. Otherwise, we have a lot of names to add.
I’d like hear more from HVB on this subject, not just because he proposed Green, but also because he is, I believe, a true fan of the man’s guitar tone.
I think they should be open to debate, Mwall, but this wasn’t my challenge. Hrrundi, what say you? Isn’t it always in the spirit of RTH to allow for the possibility of heated debate?
If so, I’ll question Dennis Wilson. I don’t think it’s his ka-raaaazy-ness that was his main appeal but his “tragic” fall from grace owing to the demons of drugs, alcohol, and badly groomed facial hair.
Hey, how about Richard Lloyd?
Arthur Lee
I’m sure our interview will do wonders for Richard Lloyd’s fanbase!
People may be more interested in current-day Phil Spector because of his deterioration, but I don’t think the affection for or appreciation of his great productions is affected by it. Speaking of which, I was listening to Leonard Cohen’s Death of a Ladies’ Man the other day, and it’s really good, contray to what I had heard.
Has anyone heard that new Richard Lloyd record? If it hadn’t been for the interview, I probably would have bought it.
Sly Stone
BigSteve wrote:
Perhaps, but in listening to his productions over the years, even after accounting for the context of what were initially groundbreaking developments, I think he gets A LOT of mileage out of his Napoleonic persona. How much more highly regarded would some other producers of that time have been had they beaten women and set a pistol on the mixing console? For instance, Curtis Mayfield productions from the early ’60s sound much better, but as highly regarded as he was, nice guys finish second.
Oh, BigSteve, I’ve got the Richard Lloyd album and it’s actually pretty good. I posted a couple of tracks from it about 2 months ago. Check the archives.
If we’re allowed to object to any suggestions, I’ll object to Sly Stone. His popularity in his time was almost solely the result of his fantastic, unifying record making. Once he started blowing off gigs and shoving 8-balls up his nostrils almost all interest in him waned. Do qualify for this title, doesn’t interest in your records have to result, in part, from works made during one’s ka-raaaaay-zeeee period? For that reason, I’m withdrawing my own nomination of Phil Spector. He earned his initial legend through the love people had for his productions.
Instead, I will suggest Tori Amos.
Cat Power.
How did we go so long before a Cat Power nomination, or was Tvox just holding out for last man standing status???
Esquerita.
Jad Fair
Jad Fair and Robyn Hitchcock aren’t crazy in the sense being used here, right? Eccentric is one thing (eye of the beholder, no?), but Jad Fair is about as crazy as Joe Jack Talcum, which is not at all. Unless I’m missing something.
Who’s that guy who posed for an album cover with a turtle shell on his back? Julian Cope? Him.
I withdraw Peter Green. BigSteve is right, I don’t think people like him more because of his mental illness. Dennis Wilson is also disqualified for the reasons cited by Mr. Mod. At thyis moment, *I* am the last man standing — at least, assuming I remembered Julian Cope’s name correctly.
Tvox, I can’t speak for Jad Fair, but hasn’t Hitchcock cultivated a bit more than an eccentric persona in his music? Or haven’t college kids over the years thrust that persona on him? I don’t think HVB is looking, necessarily, for musicians with documentation of a bipolar disorder, for instance, but musicians who’ve attracted fans based on the perception that they were crazy – but perhaps not crazy like Ozzy Osbourne and his “Crazy Train”.
I could easily be wrong here. Hrrundi, RTH awaits your clarification!
Mod, your take on this is correct. We seek rock personalities whose Look, if you will, is one of craziness. Caveat: *real* craziness, not craziness of this variety:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=blkxSkJzNAU
So you’ve been holding out on clarifying things in your own challenge to the Hall just so you could claim the advantage in winning this contest, Hrrundi? Nice move! I’m sure someone’s going to top you yet.
Roger Waters, who is self-proclaimed ka-raaaay-zeee by association with Syd Barrett?
No, Hitchcock may have had wacky songs about bugs and stuff (though he’s toned that down quite a bit in recent years), but he’s never projected himself as out of his gourd, or as a messed up person. He’s never come across as anything other than a very precise, well-spoken, funny and sarcastic Englishman, albeit with odd interests. If wackiness were his entire shtick, then maybe, but he’s much more artistically and aesthetically developed than that.
Brother JT
Roger Waters does not count! Come on, Mod… that’s a stretch: craziness by association? Sure, he’s got a reputation as a neurotic asshole, but that’s not the same thing!
Not sure we can allow James Taylor, either. Crazy he may be, but it’s not part of any reason why he’s loved so.
Robyn Hitchcock’s a pussy
I know Waters doesn’t count, but I bet he wishes he did!
Agreed re: James Taylor not qualifying, HVB, AND the other JT indeed qualifying, Petesecrutz!
How ’bout one of rock’s earliest crazy men, Little Richard?
Little Richard, mod? He’s only as crazy as crazy as Chubby Checker, which is to say, only crazily annoying. And is shawnkilroy suggesting that being “a pussy” is some form of insanity? Because, again, we’d have a much longer list.
Failed bid, but a bid: Nugent.
Alice Cooper, before his whole “I’m so crazy, I’m actually a conservative who plays golf!” epiphany.
Have we had Jonathan Richman already?
Jim “Dandy” Mangrum.
Edgar Winter.
Have we gone without Beefheart all this while?
Most, or any, of the Butthole Surfers.
Nick Cave, if it’s looking crazy that we’re talking about.
Nick Drake, if it’s literally crazy that we’re talking about.
Man, that chapter in Our Band Could Be Your Life about the Butthole Surfers was terrifying. It made me crazy.
Mozart
Genesis P. Orridge
Ted Nugent
I think General Slocum already suggested Nugent. I’m not buying him as a ka-raaaaaay-zeeee man, but it could simply be my severe aversion to his music. What’s your ruling, HVB? I know you can tolerate that guy’s guitar tone.
Mod: were you paying attention during my Powerpoint presentation? I specifically called the Nuge out for being far, far away from the centerpoint of tone nirvana! As for his keee-raaaay-zeeee-nes, I say no. He’s another “crazy train” rider.
So far, Mod is in the lead for the No-Prize with the Genesis P. Orridge call. I thought Mwall had us all beat with that *excellent* Nick Drake nomination, but rules are rules. Come on — somebody topple Moddie while there’s still time!
How ’bout I do it with Arthur Brown, as in “the crazy world of…”
I am the suzerain!
Hrrundivbakshi wrote:
Sorry, man. My memory isn’t that great. The Nuge got me to thinking about how his music stacks up to George Thorogood and ZZ Top, then I simply fell apart for a bit. Glad to know I’m still standing! I feel extremely confident that I’ll be collecting the RTH No-Prize.
I wasn’t suggesting the dude who boinked Carly Simon but rather the other Brother JT. I have given this topic some thought and while many of the people listed above are known for thier mentally unstable image, I can’t say that is what lead me to investigate the music.
A few years ago, I was riding an Amtrak train and ended up chatting with what I thought was an crazed old hippie and it turned out to be a guy from the Holy Modal Rounders. I was only remotely familiar with them and after that bizarre conversation I investigated the music more.
The rules of this game are becoming incoherent. But I’m trying.
Ian Curtis.
Wannabe crazy (but NOT my nominee – Lindsey Buckingham
Now…my striking blow to Mr. Mod’s spot atop the hill…
Karen Carpenter
Hear me out. No cool cats touted the genius of The Carpenters before Ka-raaaay-zeee Karen starved herself to death. Then, she died in a way that hit close to home for many people. It was sad. She and her creepy brother suddenly went from hazily remembered remnants of the cheesiest moments in the ’70 to fragile, sad birds that rock critics could relate to. Next thing you know, Karen Carpenter is an unheralded vocalist, on par with the greatest interpreters of the works of Bacharach/David, Paul Williams, Paul Anka, et al.
I don’t mean to come off as insensitive, but I’ve been holding onto this name since lunchtime.
Paul Superapple!
Jaco Pastorius?
Hey, how about Roy Wood?!
(Incidentally, his name came to mind because I’m listening to Super Furry Animals right now, and I’m thinking they carried the Roy Wood mantle of mad-scientist chunky guitar-pop in the ’90s. Thoughts?)
I think Jaco achieved all the success he was going to have before he went off the deep end, don’t you think?
Who’s the woman from Throwing Muses, Kristin Hirsch? Does she have broad ka-raaaaay-zeeee appeal, or is that just my perception?
Mmmm…Super Furry Animals carrying on the work of Roy Wood? I’ll have to pull out the albums I own by them again. Last time I listened to them they reminded me of Classic Pink Floyd as influenced by punk rock.
I think sitting on a name in order to win Last Man Standing should be an automatic DQ.
This is getting tough, but I’m gonna have to say “No” to Roy Wood — he’s an English Eccentric, not a crazy man. I agree with Mod on Jaco, so “no” there. Karen Carpenter?! Man I don’t know what kind of asshole trendy dickheads you hang out with, meanstom, but remind me to never come to any of their house parties. Karen Carpenter was huge well before the puking/dying thing, and the fact that a bunch of beret-wearing dickheads like her more since she died of starvation doesn’t count in this contest. Gotta say, emphatically, “no” there. I have to plead ignorance on this Superapple guy. If the rest of you feel he’s as kee-rayyy-zee as mwall’s solidly excellent Ian Curtis nomination, we’ll need a kee-ray-zee vote-off.
Or, I could just spoil the fun by going all retro on your asses and saying Screaming Lord Sutch. And if that doesn’t pass muster, I got another one up my sleeve. And, no, I haven’t been hoarding. This issue is a pet peeve of mine, so I got a bunch of grievance-worthy rock personalities to trot out.
Shit, I forgot to nominate the guy who inspired this whole thread: Sun Ra!
See, this is the part where I get lost. A look of craziness and craziness are often opposites.
But I’m not throwing in the towel, just thinking further.
Marilyn Manson. Inverse insanity to success ratio from Charles Manson.
Iggy Pop
Darby Crash….
Kurtney Cocaine.
and Brother JT isn’t crazy. but I guess some people like him more because they think he is.
hrrundivbakshi smacked me down as follows: ‘Man I don’t know what kind of asshole trendy dickheads you hang out with, meanstom, but remind me to never come to any of their house parties. Karen Carpenter was huge well before the puking/dying thing, and the fact that a bunch of beret-wearing dickheads like her more since she died of starvation doesn’t count in this contest. Gotta say, emphatically, “no” there.’
Damn! How can you ignore an entire generation of people who have no business liking her music if not for identifying with her illness? Her second wave of popularity may be second only to Brian Wilson’s owing to her atrocity exhibition appeal. If she goes, Brian Wilson goes. Take that video of him off The Main Stage!
Whoever said Ozzy Osbourne doesn’t count is a dickhead too. I’m putting Ozzy on the table.
Kool Keith
Re: Roy Wood’s legacy and Super Furry Animals…I’m a big fan of both, but hadn’t made the association before. I think I can hear it though, maybe in tracks like SFA’s “Receptacle For The Respectable” (one of my favorites of theirs) and The Move’s “Omnibus” (same)? Super Furry Animals would definitely do a killer cover of Omnibus.
meanstom,
i disagree that the small coterie of carpenter revivalists “had no business liking her music”. most of them were 90s hipsters who remembered hearing those songs on the radio when they were children, and their aging hippie parents had control of the car’s fm dial.
like alot of the interest in the 70s that cropped up back in the 90s, it was based on nostalgia.
and no, karen carpenter was not crazy, either.
neither is kool keith. neither is ozzy.
by the way nobody’s mentioned mark smith, who is as bonkers as a cuckoo clock.
Oooh, Mark Smith and saturnismine are standing tall!!!
Moondog? I’ve never seen anything that specifically said he was crazy – but he lived on the streets of NYC for years, and dressed like a viking. That is, at least, not normal.
The fact that this is by far the longest “Last man Standing” contest ought to tell us something sad about rock and roll — and why we love/hate it so much. I am afraid this may be a freakshow parade of horrors with no end, and I’m prepared, for the good of the Hall, to declare no winners — and rock and roll the big Loser. I leave the final disposition of this topic to our all-powerful Moderator, of course.
Oh, and Meanstom? I didn’t mean to bitch-slap you and your Carpenter/Wilson comparison is worth considering.
No apology necessary, hrrundivbakshi. To tell the truth it felt kind of good.
HVB ponders and then concludes by saying:
I think we were all comfortable with the knowledge that we were losers going into this. I have no problem with keeping the thread open for future suggestions. There’s always the chance that someone will dig back into the archives of a Last Man Standing post and feel compelled to top what was thought to be a long-settled discussion. If we can’t allow ourselves to be that pathetic tomorrow, how will we ever allow ourselves to be so pathetic today?
In my sleep, I thought of Marilyn and Darby, and woke up to find them taken.
But how about the original?:
Robert Johnson
I feel no need to win, but I thought Kool Keith fit the thread because of how being a former patient at Bellevue comes up so often in things written about him, true or not.
Yeah, Keef crossed my mind too, but I don’t think there are significant numbers of Stones fans who like the band just because Keef has occasionally been crazy.
Sorry not to be letting this one die just yet.
Gram Parsons?
Vincent Van Gogh.
Steve, if you open the door to visual artists and writers, this thread may never end.
This is a better-worded version of what I was gonna say about Kristin Hersh. Does that mean she wins or does it disqualify her? I can’t remember anymore.
I think Parsons falls into that same Fallen Angel category as Dennis Wilson and, perhaps, Marianne Faithfull, before anyone suggests her. Beauty and opportunity gone bad is a very attractive combination for certain rock fans, no?
Mr. Mod, this thread is starting to convince me that it’s never “just about the music.” It’s always about The Mythology of Rock, which appears in many guises, sometimes including The Power and Glory of Rock or The Beautiful Destructiveness of Rock or even Rock: The Glory of Madness. I’m feeling a glossary urge coming on…
I know, mwall, but I checked, and there’s nothing in hvb’s start-up post that says music. Anyway, there’s always Robert Schumann.
Well, there’s Scriabin:
In 1909 he returned to Russia permanently, where he continued to compose, working on increasingly grandiose projects. For some time before his death he had planned a multi-media work to be performed in the Himalayas, that would bring about the armageddon, “a grandiose religious synthesis of all arts which would herald the birth of a new world.”
from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Scriabin#Career_and_later_life_.281894-1915.29
yeah, alex, i thought about the bellevue thing, but i always heard that it was hype, or a joke. maybe he is, though. the crazy takes on so many forms!
Mwall wrote:
You know, there’s talk of another LIVE RTH event going on behind the scenes. It’s never ‘just about the music'” could well be the theme of such an event.
Jerry Lee Lewis
Gibby Haynes.
The sight of him backstage at the troc with no shirt on, carrying a shot gun around (all day, through load in, sound check, and the opening acts) purported to be loaded is my submission of evidence for his craziness.
Dr. John’s Jerry Lee Lewis suggestion reminded me that Johnny Cash could qualify here. Sure he was huge before the pill-popping and the setting of forest fires and what not, but the aforementioned behavior certainly attracted more fans to his music (i.e. rock and roll fans) who wouldn’t have necessarily gone for a country artist, don’t you think? And again, we all know Johnny wasn’t crazy, but it’s the perception that counts in this case.
As for Mark E. Smith, severe control issues and megalomania (not to mention borderline alcoholism and pill/drug abuse) don’t equal craziness.
berlyant,
don’t make me break out my mark e. smith backstage at the trocadero stories, too.
saturnismine,
don’t make me break out my own Gibson Haynes anecdotes/stories, too.
bring it mr. clean!
re. mark e. smith, matt, describing him as you did is really selling him short in whacko dept. trust me.
1. My first Surfers show was at City Gardens. I went up with The Johnsons when they were scheduled to open for the Replacements (maybe Tvox was along too?). While waiting in the parking lot to load in, the Surfers rolled up and they claimed to have a show that night too. Who knows if Randy Now arranged it or if it was a scheduling snafu, they ended up opening for the Johnsons (if my memory serves me correctly…) and the Mats headlined. Gee – that was so long ago maybe even Jon Stewart was behind the bar.
2. Played a New Years Eve show in DC – us, the Surfers and the Cramps. Fun night! Backstage, Gibby convinced some of us that there was a pencil drawn on the toilet bowl we should all see when in fact there was a huge turd in there…his creation I think…
3. While recording a ridiculous song in Austin TX called “Anderson, Walkman, Buttholes and How!”, producer Brian Beattie suggested we should call Gibby and have him do something on the track. We gave him a ring and he came on out. He wore his Anderson, Wakeman, Bruford and Howe shirt for the session. Gave a us a terrific take for the track and spent a lot of time drawing penises on the console with the grease pencil used to mark fader levels…
Bring it saturn! To be fair, I’ve never met the man, but what I wrote above is just gathered from everything I’ve read and watched.
Kate Bush