Earlier today General Slocum posed the following thoughts at the tail end of a recent Dugout Chatter:
OK…what’s up with Thurston Moore? I have always been just one arm’s length away from being anything more than luke warm about Sonic Youth. Some admittedly great songs still don’t make them a band I like. That’s odd, to me, and unusual in my experience. So I just took out of the library today that Trees Outside the Academy album. Some of it sounds good, some really interesting rhythm guitar in there. But the whole package is a tastefully elaborate, calculatedly self-deprecating, quasi-candid shrine to Mr. Moore himself, and his own obtuse hipness. Fans, hatas, thoughts?
I know the General and let me tell you, he’s no dimestore, artsy-fartsy-averse Townsperson. This isn’t the esteemed-yet-hippie-hating Hrrundivbakshi, our very own 2000 Man of the People, or even an open-minded, reasonable, tolerant sort like like myself raising these issues. Rather it’s among the most free-thinking and visionary regular voices in the Halls of Rock. Hell, this is a guy we might have pegged for a Sonic Youth fan! For this reason I’m bringing the General’s idle chatter to The Main Stage. I’m hopeful that his asking this question will give the necessary campaign against rock’s most ubiquitous rock-doc commentator the credibility it requires.
yeeeahhh….
thurston’s a little too cool for school idnee?
he was into whatever band you like before you were. he’s even hung out with them. he’s on every nyc art scene worth knowing about….and blerbllldruvvulllldreck.
i’ve enjoyed *quite* a bit of their music, but have always been less than a fan of his persona, which i think he stole from the tall dorky blond haired kid in “over the edge”…you know, the one who takes acid before he goes to school and he can’t make it through his art history class, because they’re looking at hieronymous bosch’s “garden of earthly delights” triptych.
great band. annoying guy.
I don’t know…. I’ve liked SY a lot for a long time (though I haven’t heard this new solo album), but I had generally avoided the Thurston ‘persona’ because of these kinds of comments. But when I rented the DVD collection of the SY videos, there was a ton of interview footage with him discussing the various videos. I found him engaging and genuine. It’s true that he knows all the coolest people, but he seemed generous about it. He reminded me of Ginsberg, who also seemed to have all the right connections but who always talked up his friends and tried to bring them along with him as got more famous.
Is Thurston still the uber-indie gadfly he was in the late ’80s and early ’90s? Does he show up in rock docs still? From what I can tell, he was long surpassed in acts of pundit whoredom by Henry Rollins and Scott Ian.
The new solo album is solid, though not as good as my favorite SY albums.
I think Thurston is genuinely enthusiastic about what he likes and goes about promoting what he likes with the zeal of a recent convert. Many people, rightly or wrongly, don’t think this is cool.
But give him some credit: if it weren’t for him, bands like Nirvana (again for better or worse) would have had a harder time getting noticed and there wouldn’t be as great of a push for cult artists, like Judee Sill, to get reissued.
Besides, he’s not nearly as annoying as Henry Rollins.
Oats wrote:
“he was long surpassed in acts of pundit whoredom…”
Great Moments in Pundit Whoredom would make a great RTH feature.
Sometimes, the threads on this list make everyone here sound like whiny losers. This is one of those times. Dr. John and BigSteve have rightly called (but more gently than me) bullshit.
I’ve never cared much for Sonic Yoot. I do like the fact that Thurston “goes about promoting what he likes with the zeal of a recent convert.” I usually don’t like the same things he does, but he seems like a genuine fan to me. That’s one reason I like Patterson Hood (though Patterson and I like a lot more of the same bands). I like people that stay interested in new stuff. So while I’m not much of a fan of his music, I think he’s interesting.
Then again, I’m so uncool it’s laughable.
mwall whines, and loses:
Sometimes, the threads on this list make everyone here sound like whiny losers. This is one of those times. Dr. John and BigSteve have rightly called (but more gently than me) bullshit.
I winningly retort:
Firstly, one of the virtues of BigSteve’s outlook is that he is loathe to “call bullshit,” and is much more likely to reason a response. And as for Dr. John, I didn’t say that Moore’s enthusiasm was uncool, or that his influence on music was uncool, nor that he was annoying in relation to Henry Rollins, and so do not feel that my points were addressed by him per se. Second, I was only stating my opinion. As such, it is true, and incontravertible, if transitory – therefore incapable of being bullshit. If what you meant to say was that my opnion was a shitty one, you miswrote.
I nowhere said Mr. Moore wasn’t enthusiastic. And the convert’s zeal is indeed the one he’s got. Did you listen to that 20th century music record, with Cage, Wolff et al on it? Moore and the crew served up some clumsy turds from some woefully underheard composers, and in so doing, brought those composers to the attention of a much broader audience. I am grateful for the attempt and the intent, and underwhelmed by the sounds.
In the case of this newest record, I found some of it interesting and beautiful. But it was the inclusion of dozens of photos of the auteur throughout the booklet that set off the red flag. Reminded me of “Jesus’ Blood Never Failed Me Yet” by Gavin Bryars. Great music. Annoying self-congratulatory package.
Lastly, I just left a comment. Mr. Mod supplied the Thurston-Moore-esque intro to the comment. I just wanted to get some sense of how alloyed people’s appreciation of this guy was with the sorts of misgivings I had. I thought Steve was not too far off my idea (“bullshit” indeed!)
I cop openly to being as old as I am. I do try to entertain while kvetching, when I do. I never whine. Too often I am a smart ass in public and in private. But at my age, I’ve made peace with that, too. Ever since seeing Chubby Checker take credit for discovering the human pelvis on Johnny Carson, I have been fine busting the chops of those more successful than I.
Thanks to all who have shared on this tidbit.
Man, that’s not a retort. That’s, ahem, A Mighty Wind of Self-Defense.
sheesh, mwall.
there’s nothing wrong with saying a guy has an annoying persona.
i haven’t seen the vids bigsteve’s talking about, and i had in mind a much earlier version of thurston when i wrote my post.
i don’t mind his enthusiasm for other bands at all, but it often went over the line, past enthusiasm, past “the zeal of a recent convert”, and well into “i knew these guys before you, before they were cool, and in fact, i helped make them cool” bullshit.
i’m usually the rth guy defending thurston and sonic youth. i’m a real enthusiast for his tunes. but i’m a human being, too: i have a right to find his post goo persona annoying. fuck me. it WAS annoying. and it died hard. but it’s just a persona (and personae are not easily crafted or controlled). not his tunes. nor is it what he’s like in person.
bigsteve’s post makes me think that he’s mellowed with age, however. not surprising.
Saturn, it’s all right with me if you’re touchy on this subject. I can understand why you would be. I find it a little surprising, but I understand.
mwall recognizes Greatness:
Man, that’s not a retort. That’s, ahem, A Mighty Wind of Self-Defense.
I humbly agree:
Thank you. Your deference, if not an actual apology, is accepted.
I would be disingenuous if I didn’t note that the photo-history of Thurston Moore didn’t bother me for several pages, because the first photo, inside the cover, is a lovely shot of a young Suzie Quatro. No text explains any of the images, and I took this to mean none was required. He indeed placed the image with the zealousness of a hetero male, if not of a convert. And this I applaud.
You’re great, man. General Slocum acknowledges that he has Produced A Mighty Wind.
All in good fun–
I think what I like about Thurston is that he is enthusiastic. What bothers me so often about hipsters is that the ‘whatever’ attitude, the vibe that they’re too cool to care, as if committing to something might crack the facade.
The paradox is that Thurston’s affect is kind of blank, in fact I think it’s the source of the image that many hipsters slightly younger than him put on without fully understanding. But if you listen to what he’s saying, Thurston does care, and for a while there he really did have his finger on the pulse of things, and he was the nexus of lots of neat stuff that we otherwise might never have seen the connections between. What comes off as attitude to some seems to me just a way of walking the line between genuine enthusiasm and not coming off like a marketing rep.
Yes, any sparring on RTH should be kept in the parameters of, say, WWF wrestling. And if you were familiar with any of my own music, you would immediately realize my inability to hear “A Mighty Wind” as anything but a respectful salute!
As far as Thurston, Steve, I think you’re right. And though there’s so much energy there, and hearts in the right place, it does still surprise me that his (their) music doesn’t hit on more cylinders for me. And I was positing the self-congratulatory nature of them (in that potent NYC way) as being the nugget in my craw.
“Saturn, it’s all right with me if you’re touchy on this subject. I can understand why you would be. I find it a little surprising, but I understand.”
mwall, as you continue to jump down the throats of people who are offering criticisms of thurston you appear to be the touchy one.
i’m curious to know your understanding of why i would be touchy on the subject of thurston? i suspect you don’t know me half as well as you think you do.
here’s your chance to appear less hostile towards me, and more willing to actually have a conversation with me on the subject than you have thus far.
it’s probably clear to others that what i’m trying to say, in a nutshell is: even though i’m a huge sy fan, i don’t stand on ceremony, and I sympathize with slocum’s general distaste for thurston for the reasons i outline above.
i simply had *this* thurston in mind when describing him as i did:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Nb2Suu1bfxA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=p88rbd23ucY
as i said above, it’s *just* a persona. i’m aware of that. but i can see why people might not like him.
I’ll have to say, I felt a little guilty about bringing the General’s comments to The Main Stage without his approval. And I felt a little guilty about framing his comments in a way that may have more closely aligned him with those who have whined about Thurston Moore over the years. I also felt guilty about the fact that I was away from my computer most of the day yesterday and, therefore, could not take any necessary blame for any possible misunderstandings related to charges of whining. However, now that I’m catching up, I’m proud to see how folks handled the situation and came to a better understanding.
Saturn, I can’t even begin to see how you could suggest that I’m jumping down your throat by saying that I can understand your attitude, but find it a little surprising. I didn’t mean to say I understand you individually, by the way, but that I can understand why you (or someone, I suppose) would feel that way. Maybe that wasn’t quite clear. I suppose we can debate who really seems touchy here, but whatever.
Now, whether or not there’s too much self-promotion going on in TM’s self-presentation, at times, which both wouldn’t surprise me but also strikes me as oh, more or less no big deal in an industry built on star mythology, the fact that he goes out of his way to promote other artists work is something I find interesting, especially in relation to the tone of “everybody who succeeds becomes an asshole” vibe that sometimes permeates this list. Don’t you think maybe there’s a certain pretension in that too? Clearly it’s much easier to tear somebody down than build somebody up, and much more fun too probably, which is why this list (and I include myself) often engage in it. And of course you do “stand on ceremony,” since we’ve got plenty of ceremonies around here.
Now, the General is right to the extent that he posed it as a question as much as a statement. But I’m not yet convinced that anti-TM feelings here are any less pompous than he himself sometimes seems to be. In fact they strike me as more or less equivalently pompous. I don’t say this to “jump down your throat,” but just as what I see.
As to the Pundrity Whoredom bit, anybody on this list ever been on a talk show, much less hosted one? I include myself here, but what are the chances that most of us would look at least as much like an asshole as TM does?
mwall, maybe after you make a point, i’ll refer to you as a “whiny loser”, and then choose not to address any of the points you make in detail. then i’ll call you touchy and say that i can see why *you* would be that way (rather than saying i can see why “one” would be that way). then we’ll see how it goes from there, eh?
seriously, though…no biggie, and thanks for responding on the up and up.
i don’t care one way or the other about his self-promotion. i don’t recall mentioning it. neither did i say, or suggest, that “everybody who succeeds becomes an asshole.” i don’t know where you’re getting this stuff, but it suggests that you *are* making assumptions about who i am in this discussion, despite your claims to the contrary. if you think i’m jealous of TM, just go ahead and say it.
meanwhile, i will continue to refrain from making any assumptions about where YOU are coming from, and simply continue to ask you why you’re saying what you’re saying.
and since you (didn’t) ask: i’m coming from the point of view of being rth’s longest, most card carrying-est defender of this guy.
and my initial post (and subsequent ones) was from that perspective: a generous concession to the hatas like slocum. i can see where they’re coming from. i was sympathizing with the “obtuse hipness” comment.
did you watch see the clips i recommended? after watching them, you might agree that slocum puts it mildly.
and yes, thurston has mellowed since then, but in reading that phrase in his initial post, this is the thurston that immediately came to mind.
cheers for pointing out that none of us would fare better in talk show situations. it’s a point i’ve made several times when rth’ers begin bashing their idols.
however, i think that thurston has been in front of the camera enough times to be over that kind of self-consciousness. he even seeks the camera out.
general, since I’ve been accused of not responding to your points, I went back and reread your original post. And, so, you’re basing most if not all of your case on the packaging of one record?
Not to put to fine a point on it, but have you ever seen him in person or met him?
I’ve run into him a few times and he has a real self-deprecating humor. He seems highly aware of his “image” as a narcissistic space case and goes out of his way to poke fun at it.
Far be it from me to defend him, but I think you’re being unfair. Whereas, saturn I do understand your reaction to his “over the topness.” It’s a fine line, indeed, and if you’ve seen him cross it, then I have no problem with you calling him on it.
dr. john, thanks for the understanding post!
i think slocum is basing his assessment on much more than one record, however.
i’ve hung out with thurston several times (in several states). he was always as you describe him. this is why i keep emphasizing his persona rather than what he’s like when the cameras are off. it’s the part that most people see, the part that’s up for debate as framed in this thread.
Thematically the band calls for a leader with “mystique” and Thurston has zilch, perhaps reminding me too much of my own lack of said quality.
I am left wondering about the “obtuse hipness” comment. How would it be defined? If hip has always been on the margins of culture, where on the cultural map is obtuse hipness?
Well, Saturn, yes, I was being a dick, and doing it on purpose. Did you think I didn’t know?
Still, I won’t single you out because I didn’t in the first place (though you keep somehow insisting that I did), but yes, while I doubt that anyone here would literally want to be TM, I do suspect and have suspected that a large degree of TM hating, here and elsewhere, comes from wanting the position he has in the world. I don’t even think that saying that is so shocking. And while I admit that part of the fun of this list is poking holes in the reputations of the famous, I don’t think it’s too far off to say that “everyone who succeeds is an asshole” is one of the main general zeitgeists of this list. Can we name even one well known musician who has not been called an asshole on this list at least once? I mean, why bother to deny it? Why not just go on from there?
But Mr. Mod is right also: perhaps I was responding as much to multiple past references to TM on this list as to the current discussion. But it did strike me as being part of an continuum.
As to the particular videos in question, perhaps we need more of a discussion of how YouTube works. Isn’t part of it (not all, but part) to scour the world and find one moment on film when somebody looked like an idiot? I appreciate that bakshi notes in his President threat that none of us would survive that scrutiny either.
Pablo Piccaso was never called an asshole, not even on RTH! Of course, he wasn’t a musician. No one’s ever called Stevie Wonder an asshole, have they?
Personally, I think everyone has been “right” so far in this discussion. For the record, my interest in this story was the fact that General Slocum posed these questions. Slocum was the focus for me based on his years of tolerance, showmanship, and understanding. I hope that the ensuing discussion does not cause anyone to stop putting our heroes under undue scrutiny – and ourselves in the process.
mwall, i don’t recall “insisting” that you called me a whiny loser (the point hadn’t been argued yet. what’s to insist at that stage of the discussion?).
but i *was* only one of two people who had said anything negative about thurston when you posted your “whiny loser” missive. and your post that begins with “saturn”…certianly that was addressed to me, no?
i really don’t understand your vitriol against the critical thoughts that have been posted about thurston in this thread.
the “everyone who becomes successful is an asshole” credo died about ten years ago. and, no, i DON’T think it’s a part of the zeitgeist of rth. and for god’s sake, when it has cropped up, i’m usually among the first to argue wholeheartedly against it, because it IS such an old, outdated way of looking at rock stars.
so, no, you’re not as aware of the continuum as you claim.
those youtubes i recommended don’t follow your axiom of how youtubes work, since they are from a movie (‘the year punk broke’), and have been available to the public for a long time. besides, it’s clear that thurston arranged to be on camera in both situations.
so no, it’s not like anybody had to work hard to find these *dirty little secret* clips of him, as your youtube scenario suggests.
again…the point i’m hammering home here; he is crafting a persona. and it is one that is deliberately meant to rankle some. It doesn’t rankle me. and when i went to see that film, i giggled like the rest of the stoners in the audience. but i can why it does rankle others.
Dr. John, I think “obtuse hipness” would be a kind of blankness of affect. A lack of emotional response. I think it may be distinguished from earlier forms of hipness that were based more on showy styles and antics. Culturally, one might define it as passive resistance rather than more overt resistance. There’s no way to win anymore, so the best thing to do is not respond at all. I think it’s actually quite a common social tactic at the moment.
meant to say…”i can [see] why it does rankle others”.
also, should have written…that i don’t think either i, or slocum (or oats) are saying that thurston became an asshole after being successful.
if anything, i think his persona is an ironic reading of the people who do let success go to their heads.
i also think it’s funny to read BigSteve’s praise of him for having “his finger on the pulse”. that’s part of the joke actually. his finger isn’t, or wasn’t, any more on the pulse of rock than any punk rock enthusiast / record collector who grew up in the late 70s / early 80s. and he knew it. in the early 90s, he had taken to mocking *that guy* quite a bit. then it became part of the one-sheet language that get spewed out by the press in the 90s. pretty hilarious how well he was able to manipulate the media.
back then, he came off as antagonistic pretty consistently. i’m pretty sure it was on purpose. i’m also pretty sure it’s what slocum sees that he doesn’t like.
now, i must leave the computer…but i’ll be back.
All right, Saturn. Maybe I overreacted with hostility to a perceived hostility that wasn’t really hostile. I don’t think so, but I’ll grant that it seemed that way to you. I thought that calling the thread one for “whiny losers” might be a way of getting something started. Did it work?
As to what did or didn’t “die ten years ago,” I don’t follow you, at least in regards to RTH, where what supposedly died in oh, about 1981 is exactly what some of us are committed to defending. Not all, I’ll grant, but many.
I think my point about YouTube doesn’t necessarily involve whether the person in question authorized the video. That doesn’t change the nature of the YouTube game, one which frequently involves making other people look ridiculous, a game that isn’t really out of vogue at all as far as I can tell.
mwall, I think obtuse hipness is a worthy successor to psychic oblivion, no?
Mwall wrote:
Hey, don’t pull “many” other, innocent Townspeople into this cut, which is obviously directed at me and maybe 2 other regulars around here. By the way, while you’re calling me out, have you considered changing your handle to They Will Know Me by the Sound of the Pre-War Blues and Jazz Reissues Blasting Out My Windows?
All in JEST and LOVE, my man.
Perhaps to redirect thoughts to the General’s post, where have the following artists falled on the Tastefully Elaborate, Calculatedly Self-Deprecating, Quasi-Candid Shrine to One’s Self, and One’s Own Obtuse Hipness Scale (TECSQSOSOOOH), on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being at the high end, in Thurston Moore territory?
I enjoy the jest a great deal, Mr. Mod. Quite seriously, I feel contrite that I hurt Saturn’s feelings by seeming to call him a whiny loser. That wasn’t my goal. I just wanted to turn up the heat. Perhaps he’s right, and everybody is nicer now. I’ll try to learn and grow.
Eno: 5
Zappa: not sure he fits, because I don’t see the self-deprecating element.
Scott Ian: don’t know enough to comment.
Me: Self-deprecrating my ass. Pompous Angry and Having A Great Fucking Time would describe me much better.
Dr. John, especially in California, Psychic Oblivion mutates into Obtuse Hipness seamlessly, at least partly because in San Diego, it’ll always be 1974.
I think the shift was more pronounced on the east coast: the punk/new wave jitters didn’t give in so easily to the Emotional Zombie approach.
mwall, you’re really pulling out all the stops. i’ve never seen this sensitive side of you before. perhaps i haven’t been paying attention and am not all that aware of the continuum either.
but i never said ‘everyone’s nicer now’, either. where in the hell do you get this stuff?
you’re reading far too much emotion into my posts. i’m simply pointing out what i’m seeing (re. you, and TM).
and trust me: thurston’s behavior isn’t limited to those youtubes. he’s like that from wire to wire in that movie.
Saturn, there’s more than one way to bait a critic. If it doesn’t work with flies, why not try it with honey?
you’re cracking me up, mwall. and my feelings weren’t hurt. i just felt frustrated because i felt like you were jamming a discussion of the topic for a little while there.
i like your “self-deprecating my ass” comment! it’s pretty self deprecating!
mod, i want to give my own TECSQSOSOOOH ratings, but i’m not sure about how to do it.
if thurston is a 10, then would someone who’s much subtler, but is as heavily invested in his own mythology, like, say, Brian Eno, a 1?
Sat wrote:
I think the degree of investment and effectiveness in achieving the objective outweighs issues of subtlety. Good question!