It’s rare that so recent a post makes it back to soon for a Friday Flashback, but I just discovered some pot-stirring by Townsman mowgli321, a welcome newcomer to the Halls of Rock who’s showing his dedication to pushing forward intelligent rock dialog by dipping back into our rich archives. If you check out the recent comments, you’ll see some thoughtful dialog that is worth continuing. Please don’t be shy; we may be getting somewhere on this whole issue of bass players and failed guitarists!
This post initially appeared 7/10/09.
I recently ran across a period video for the Spiral Starecase‘s one Great hit, “More Today Than Yesterday,” and was immediately bowled over by the incredible coolness of the bass player in the band. Check out this clip, people, he’s got it all: great Look, great instrument, great poise/neck angle, great plucking and fretting hand action, and — most important — perhaps the greatest in-place stage sashay I’ve ever seen.
This got me thinking about what makes bass players “cool.” Can we please, for once, avoid nerdy nerdlinger terms like “in the pocket,” or “laying down the groove,” or “locking in with the drummer” to talk about what actually makes bass players “cool.” For once, can we apply the same fashion/attitude logic we reserve for guitar players to determine what makes impressionable 14-year-olds want to pick up the instrument?
I suspect this Spiral Starecase guy may have many of the answers.
HVB
p.s.: Chickenfrank, I’m especially looking at you for some thoughtful reflections on this video, and cool bass players in general.
In this case the mustache really helps.
What you don’t want from a bass player is attention grabbing, in sound or in Look. So I think the coolness lies in knowing you’re essential but not being self-aggrandizing about it. On the other hand, you don’t want a zombie either, which is why this guy does the effortless dance steps, obviously the result of years of doing four sets a night in a showband.
Actually I always hated this song. I’d forgotten about the meaningless misspelling of the band name.
it doesn’t hurt to be good looking, and also proportioned in a way that looks good with the size and shape of the bass you play.
you have to be able to move comfortably with the bass, and it helps to be a cool customer, offsetting the craziness of the others in the band.
this is why paul siminon’s height, long skinny legs, and angular hair and head somehow form a nice complement to the fender jazz bass he played. his ability to strike great rock poses and appear light on his feet were also a plus.
this is also why the early john entiwistle of the danelectro longhorn era, wins, too: very comfortable looking, tough look, cool customer.
bruce foxton’s lack of cool customer attitude is why he loses.
Here’s why he’s cool: because he looks like a total dork and he couldn’t give a rat’s ass. He’s owning it. Chasing after “cool” is a fool’s errand. This guy knows it and could not care less about what you think.
That sashay is fantastic.
I like this song, but I don’t know if I’d say the bass player is Cool. He seems like he’d be a cool guy, but I’m not sold on the stance or dance moves.
I have two bass players I immediately consider cool. The first, of course, is Rick Danko. I’m sure most of us at one time or another have shaked our heads at Robbie Robertson’s hard selling of his own genius in The Last Waltz, but I’ve always felt Danko subtly undercuts him on stage, simply by showing how he’s anchoring the band, both with his bass lines and vocals. And he looks absolutely thrilled just to be playing music for people.
On the other end of the spectrum is Martyn P. Casey of The Bad Seeds and Grinderman. Holds his bass lower than Danko. I think he best meets the excellent criteria laid out by BigSteve.
It’s hard to find clips where he gets a lot of camera time but check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQ63shhjIoM
I’m against cool in a bass player. If you want to be cool, play another damned instrument.
The problem with the cool factor for a lot of bass players is that bass usually gets no respect from the general public. Most people don’t even notice the bass player unless the bass player is overplaying a’ la Flea. Since guitars have a higher profile, more people want to play them. As a result, the bass player in a lot of bands is often just a guitar player who got “stuck” playing the bass. The self-loathing eventually shows though.
Let us also pause to marvel at the singer’s hair helmet. The seventies are coming, the seventies are coming!
Good call on the pioneering Ken doll hair helmet look, BigSteve.
That dance step needs a name. Vertical Box Step with Toe Tap or something, so you can go to Arthur Murray and learn it.
I think I really liked Mike Lamping from The Heartless Bastards. He could smoke a cigarette without using his hands while playing, and if the smoke got in his eyes or up his nose it didn’t seem to bother him at all. He seemed really tall, too. Then again, Erika is so short that it could have just been the comparison. I thought he was a really cool bass player.
I like Jack Lawrence, too. I forst saw him when he was in The Greenhornes and he was just a kid that seemed really into being in a band, but I just thought the band was really tight and he was a big reason. I saw him later in The Raconteurs and he had grown into the big Jack White fronted band thing nicely. He steps up and does backup vocals and he still seems just genuinely happy to be there.
I like to watch Davey Faragher play with E.C., but considering that E.C. hasn’t done anything good since 1978, the point could be moot. But he seems to fit the “cool” vibe that many of you are describing.
As a bassist, though, I like to mach schau when I am on stage. I jump around, pound on the bass, and look like an idiot. I suppose I wouldn’t be considered “cool” in bass circles. But I do like to make the thing make a glorious noise. Perhaps I’m just a frustrated guitarist, but cool is not one of the factors I go for when I am performing. I simply feel that sometimes playing the note isn’t enough so I resort to pounding the bass against my leg in order to achieve the desired effect. Like I said, I probably make a total fool of myself but I like to make each show a physical workout. And I try to play the right notes in the right place.
I think maybe I just suffer from a dose of envy. When I was a lowly trombonist, I was a frustrated trumpet player. In jazz, when I would solo, it would always be about the high notes. Those trumpet players seemed to get all the good stuff. As a lowly bassist, it’s the same thing. I feel like I have to fight for the attention of the audience when I should just stand there and try to groove.
TB
There are two types of cool bass players. (1) the I’m so cool I don’t even care that I got the gig (Bill Wyman, john entiwistle) (2) the ones who know that bass is the sexiest instrument (Nikki Sixx, Sid Vicious, Tommy Stinson, John Taylor)if the look can go with the instrument correctly.
I guess the key is combining the two
latelydavidband – the guitarist should wish HE was the bass player! I do both and would much rather play bass. (I guess I also consider myself a very good bassist and just an average guitarist, so that might be part of it)
I always play in trios, where the bassist is not having to fight for space (sonic or visual) on stage.
Laying down a strong and confident groove will get you noticed without having to jump around all night or resort to parlor tricks (effects, slapping, pogoing, fretless, bass-in-the-shape-of-jack-daniels-bottle) to be recognized.
A cool bass helps too (but we have had that conversation already)
on the video — bass line is great. Bass is cool (love the hollow electric bass) but that shuffle dance cracks me up (maybe if he wasn’t a white dude it would work??)
Actually, the REAL standout part in this song is the bass drum part. Check it out!
Where’s the Mod on this one? If I’m not mistaken he would point out that this guys bass neck is pointing too close to the vertical axis, not quite Bill Wyman, but not cool. Am I right here?
Oh, I know that jumping around and acting like a maniac on stage doesn’t make me popular. But I do it because I’m a slave to the music, man…
Seriously, though, I think my onstage antics have taken a downturn as I’ve gotten older/fatter/better. I used to rely on all the parlor tricks because I lacked the skills in playing the intrument. As I have improved my playing the effects have been dropped. But I still like to act like a child sometimes. I too play in a trio and feel seriously challenged whenever my guitarist takes the rare solo. I feel like I must compensate in the lack of meaty rhythmic sound.
Also, my other bandmates have come to rely on my stupid rock antics to keep them pumped and energetic. It’s all about the energy. They expect my nightly tribute to Pete Townshend and are disappointed when I fail to deliver. I hate to disappoint my bandmates.
TB
Oh, and I used to fell all icky when I played guitar. My fingers didn’t feel right and felt like I looked stupid. I’ve grown more comfortable, but nothing feels more natural in my hands than my trusty Jazz Bass. Plus, I think I look pretty natural with it, which goes a long way. I may not really be cool, but alot of this rocking business is associated with the “look”.
I remember when I bought my first bass and was showing it to my guitar-pickin’ uncle. He strapped it on and stood looking at himself in the mirror. At the time, I thought it was kinda funny/odd, but I think I get it now.
TB
How about “Duck” Dunn in this gincy video. He’s putting on that “make show”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-7QSMyz5rg
Also, doesn’t the sax player in that Spiral Staircase video look like Sammy Maudlin (the SCTV one, not the RTH one)?
Diskojoe: We REACH!
But Dunn doesn’t seem to be trying to put on a show for anyone, just lost in the rhythm. He’s working hard, and that head whipping looks involuntary.
Btw I happened to notice this in the ‘related videos’ list:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvBXKCFiZnI
Harry James’ big band covering Green Onions in Lake Tahoe in 1965 with Buddy Rich on the drums and a dancefloor full of swinging adults. It’s really something. An undermiked Red Kelly takes a bass solo at around 4:00. Very cool guy.
The not so secret dirty little secret of the bass is that it’s not that
hard to play in a band. If you were to chart the quality of all the bass
players that have reached a point of playing in a band you would get a more
perfect bell curve than you do for any other core rock instrument. There
would be only a few players at the front of the curve where you could
remark that he/she is really pulling down the quality of the band with
inferior playing. There would be a few at the back of the curve where the
bassist is the best musician in the band, and always takes them to a higher
place.
All of us in the middle are of varying degrees of “good enough”.
It’s a very short learning curve to become good enough to play in any band,
but then it’s only the very rare player that gets out of that clogged
middle. It’s hard to be the anchor, and simultaneously original,
melodic,and innovative, without suffering from guitarist playing bass
syndrome.
I think you would find much less of a bell curve for drums or
guitar. There are greater numbers both at the crappy and superior ends of
the curve. It takes longer to become good enough on guitar and drums, but
then it’s easier to be original without being a wanker.
I’ve always had a bustle in my hedgerow about Adam Clayton. He, to me, is
the epitome of “just good enough”. He is clearly not hampering the obvious
mega-success of U2, but also has never raised the level of any U2 song
ever. Entwistle, McCartney, name your favorite bass player here, are truly
the rare birds. Usually the bass player isn’t the best musician in the
band, or he/she would be playing guitar.
Sooooo. Your typical bass player hits a level of good enough, and then
needs to start focusing on job security. If you’re not a rare genius bird, you better up your cool quotient. Once you’ve reached that middle plateau,
you spend far less brain power on the music, and more attention on the
hippest clothes, the best faces, the widest stance, the coolest shades, the funkiest
sashaying, the wilder physical antics, or simply scoping the best talent in
the audience.
So, how does Spiral Starecase’s bass player play it? I want to stand out. Bang: Porn stache, that stands out. Next: you know he only spent 1/2 his time coming up with his bass line, and the other half practicing his funky walk step in the mirror. Nothing too fancy though, he’s being a good wing man. Cool.
There is very little cool about Entwistle. He’s
not interesting to watch in any way. He plays a lot of ugly basses. There
are way too many times when he’s wearing absurdly ugly tight polyester
slacks. Bad hair and beard. He’s just so overwhelmingly talented on the
bass, that it overrides his lack of everything else. He’s only cool
because he’s brilliant. The rest of us better try to be the coolest guy
in the band, or we are quickly replaced by the first hot chick that has
also reached that same middle plateau. Cause, come on, any monkey can play
a walking bass line, but a hot chick on bass is an upgrade.
Geo said:
I’ve been really busy of late, and today I took a half day and went to Ocean City for a couple of hours with the family, conducting a work teleconference in my car at the 7th Street parking lot in between hanging on the beach and eating Mack & Manco’s Pizza. Then I came home and did little but continue hanging. This cool bass player question has been on my mind since I caught this fine post this evening.
First of all, I kind of like the high-slung, raised neck of the Bill Wyman school. It says, “I’m so dedicated to playing bass that I don’t give a rat’s ass about your rock ‘n roll ‘cool.’ I’d be playing a stand-up bass if the guitarist didn’t turn up so loud!”
This particular bassist that Hrrundi raves over – as he’s always raved over this song – blows what cool he gets from his ‘stache and his bass positioning by doing that goofy dance the entire length of the song. I’m all for a little bit of schtick, but that’s too much for me to stomach.
I think you’ve all hit on many fine points about what makes for a cool bass player, although Chickenfrank was characteristically too humble. I think one of the keys is that the bassist represent the instrument’s physical, grounded role in a band, and few bassists have a better combination of wide-legged stance and rhythmic head thrust – with lips thrust forward suggestively, even threateningly – than Chickenfrank. Any time we play live and I start feeling self-conscious or otherwise need a little pick me up, I look over at him and quickly recall what it means to uphold the True Objectives of Rock ‘n Roll. Chick makes some great points about Adam Clayon, however.
The other quality that I think the coolest bassists bring to a band – and represent/act out in their stage moves – is their role as the subtle orchestrators of the secret soul of a well-arranged song. The Spiral Starecase guy, despite his reliance on the goofy dance, works this angle well – and his mustache is very supportive of his efforts. I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE focusing on the bass parts of a song. If they’re of the boring, “I’m just locking in with the kick drum” variety I get sick in the stomach and want to punch the bassist. If the bassist, however, is picking up on and suggesting subtle accents – or even if he or she is working his or her ass off at pushing the main thrust of the song, really pushing it, whether the drummer’s along for the ride or not, then I’m sold.
Here’s an example: I was listening to The Beatles’ “Something” yesterday, possibly the best song George Harrison ever wrote, and marveling at how much McCartney adds to the recording in a bold-yet-understated way. That song would have been a winner with the Starecase dude doing his box step along with a yeoman’s bassline, but McCartney’s playing takes you on an All-Access Pass through the inner workings of a song. I think the best bass players have ways of getting inside a song and exploiting stuff that’s not meant to be heard on the surface, that you have to work for to feel. When the bassist makes that effort – and when we make that effort to feel what he or she is reconfiguring in the guts of the song…man, that’s magic!
In terms of how this works into stage presence, the coolest bassists express this sense of having knowledge of the song’s inner workings. They make just the right faces, for instance, that make you sit up and say, “Hey, what did I miss!” You start waiting for that face again, expecting to hear that subtle wrinkle that the bass has exposed in the song. The coolest bassists give off these cues and get us listening for what they’re tipping off the way, as kids, we learn to count for the thunder that follows a flash of lightning.
Not all bassists who possess this All-Access Pass can express it physically. Bill Wyman, for instance, plays some awesome All-Access parts on the Brian Jones Stones recordings, but he lacked the cool skill of tipping the audience off on the licks’ coming appearance. Common wisdom holds that Wyman is underrated as a bassist because he was dog ugly, held his bass up high, and was generally boring, but it’s really his unexpressive nature (which, of course was at the route of his boring persona) that prevented him from giving off that certain Master of the Subsonic Realm that even a bassist like Adam Clayton, whose ability to project knowledge of the Subsonic Realm only disappoints all bass fans but beginners, can manage.
So, for me, the coolest bassists combine the confident, grounded physicality of a Chickenfrank with the musical mastery AND subtly self-aggrandizing (musically) nature of a Paul McCartney. The coolest bassists don’t have to be over the top with their display of their Mastery of the Subsonic Realm. In fact, my favorite bassist of all time, Bruce Thomas, is kind of nerdy. Mastery of the Subsonic Realm has a bit of a D&D flavor to it, so maybe it’s appropriate that the coolest bassists (I’ll second Rick Danko and Duck Dunne on that list) suprise you with their cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dip-FtbsD8E&feature=related
Here’s a clip of early EC & the Attractions playing “Lipstick Vogue” from some festival in Sweden or Switzerland or the Netherlands or wherever, if memory serves. The song’s a showcase for drummer Pete Thomas, but Bruce gets his share of the glory. Note a couple of his subtle moves that, in a way an extrovert like Pete or Steve Nieve could never do, suggest Bruce’s Mastery of the Subsonic Realm.
0:10 – Bruce taps out the tempo on the body of his guitar right before he and Nieve join in with Pete’s flailing fills. Bruce is saying to the audience, “The crazy drummer’s off to the races, now I’m going to lead the rest of us into our supporting position.” He’s like the guy on a Tour de France team that leads the support formation. I don’t know TDF terminology, so I’ll stop there.
0:13 – Rapid-fire foot tapping ensues. This is one of Bruce’s signature moves. He’s got a really light, deft tapping foot, but watch the slight way his hips sway as he does this. It’s quite lovely.
1:12 – Bruce does a little dip as he looks meaningfully into the crowd. This is a clear cue that he’s about to unleash a subtle message within this in-your-face arrangement.
1:18 – He spring up and juts his jaw out, like, “You catch that, bitch?” It got me wondering if I did, and I’d be sure to look for that dip next time he had such a move to reveal. At 1:20 he emphasizes his mastery with a little leg kick, as if to say, “‘Oh yeah,’ Elvis? Pete and I are bringing home this underwritten song!”
1:23 – Check out the way Bruce punctuates each descending note in that main theme, topped off by a disdainful thrust across the final note and then a series of hammering on the body of his axe. Fucking dominating!
Then the camera can barely stand to capture Bruce’s majesty and mastery as he climbs the neck and leads into Pete’s drum breakdown. There are some words that aren’t allowed to be spoken, and there are some corridors in the Halls of the Subsonic Realm that cannot be captured on video. You had to be there! See how cool that is? You had to be there to see the bassist with the smokey British Parliament member glasses do his thing. Flea lets you see it all. The guy’s a pretty great bassist, but he shows you more than what anyone needs to see. It’s like a reality show. Bruce Thomas leaves you wanting more, like Lauren Bacall in To Have and Have Not.
chickenfrank writes: there is very little cool about entwistle.
i write: how quickly we forget. pre-skeleton suit and pointy bass, he was the WAY coolest. just stood there, unphased by all the antics around him, putting out the dirtiest (but well played) bass-ing anybody had ever heard.
and i’ll go to the mat defending siminon for his coolness.
That bassist is not a cool bassist. If you look at the clip w/o the sound and focus on his moves, you would think he is playing to a much hepper track than he is.
I think to be a cool bassist you can’t be too good or too bad. If you are really good, you’ll get the tag of being a “good/great” bassist. That’s why Siminon may be the all-time coolest bassist
Andy summed up my points much quicker. You can’t be too good or bad to be cool. When you’re average on the bass, you have to try harder to be cool. The guys Mod mentioned as having an all access pass on the bass: McCartney, Wyman, Entwistle, and Bruce Thomas, are 4 of the best of all time. But none of them seem to be very cool people. (Death notwithstanding), Entwistle, Wyman, and Thomas all seem like the least interesting guys in their bands. (read The Big Wheel by Bruce Thomas for confirmation). McCartney interviews are a good confirmation of what a bore he can often be.
If you want to argue that they are cool because of how great they play, I have no retort.
I contend if you aren’t an all access pass player, you typically have less work to do than everyone else playing, and therefore it’s essential that you are bit more flamboyant somehow in the band. You need to bring the cool.
Some guys (maybe Roger Waters?) aren’t playing stunning lines, but they have more work as they “lead” the band from their position. They are absolved from having to be the cool guy, as they have that extra task.
It’s the guys who aren’t great, but whose role is just as important as the charisma guy who are cool. Siminon, Dee Dee, Tommy Stinson could all be replaced for their chops, but they knew enough to bring the cool as compensation.
CDM, do I need to remind you that Pete Extravaganza was given the bass spot in the Donuts simply because he’s so much cooler than the rest of you? Don’t give me that self-loathing. You know what time it is.
For the record, I didn’t say that McCartney, Wyman, or Entwistle were cool bassists, just that they had the all-access pass that enabled them to play cool parts. What I was getting at was that having the pass is not enough; the bassist must also be able to display “insider knowledge” while playing the parts. This ability to be a bass wizard, in a sense, can draw he audience into the joys of the bottom end. I’m standing by my belief that Bruce Thomas and Duck Dunn are very cool bassists despite that fact that, on the surface, they don’t seem cool. They’ve got good stances and they tip off the audience to the cool stuff they’re playing behind the scenes.
Granted, this is a different kind of cool than the cool Simonon achieves solely through his physical presence.
Rick Danko is the first guy that comes to mind for me who combines both the physical cool with the cool that comes from subtly tipping off the audience to the cool parts he’s about to or has just played.
When I was a young, aspiring & impressionable musician, a local Bass God once told me “to never trust a bass player that uses a pick.” He went on to list various bass players that don’t use picks (cool), and numerous bass players that do (suck). His motto: Real men use their fingers! Pretty funny, huh?
Hard to believe that that memory has stuck with me after all this time.
So where does this fit into the cool bass player discussion? Does it matter to ya’ll if the musician use a pick or not?
A pick can be a fine tool for rock ‘n roll, if you ask me. It just depends on whether the bassist is digging into the strings (potentially cool) or strumming (almost certainly not cool).
A pick is fine. That kind of rock nerd rule-making drives me batty.
You know who’s a cool bassist we haven’t mentioned yet? John Doe.
mod, what’s all this crap about “subtle tipping off the audience to the cool parts he’s just played?”
there’s nothing cool about saying “hey! check this out! lookit me!” no matter how subtle.
also…regarding the guy in the vid: i’m on a-rose’s “that bassist is not a cool bassist” team.
that dude is the personification of not cool!
There is, Saturnismine, if it’s done well. I’ve made my points on this subject. They’re practically visionary. You guys haven’t caught up to me yet. You’re all uptight, thinking I’m talking about Jaco Fuckin’ Pastorius. I bet Geo knows what I’m talking about. Perhaps some others are nodding along from the shadows, worried that they’ll come off like bass-worshipping sycophants if they cop to marveling at a truly COOL Bass Wizard. Fear not, Silent Storm of Support!
hmmm….i”ve already read your points on the subject, mod.
i’m gonna have to think about all this some more….
7th inning stretch!
It’s OK if we agree to disagree. my man. I’m really pinning my beefs on HVB.
J-ROLL gets the clutch 9th inning walk following the Stairs pinch-hit solo homer. Let’s pull this one out, Phils!
We’re brothers in lumber, Sat!
j-roll did some nice things at the plate again tonight that made me happy. i still worry that he’ll swing for the fence at the first pitch and pop it up. two weeks ago, he was still pulling that crap…as if a rookie.
and of course, it’s always best to pin our beefs on hvb, isn’t it?
Simon Gallup from the Cure is pretty cool. He plays his bass all low. he played well enough to get the point across but not too good and his hair supported the band’s thesis as well as his bass playing did.
On the subject of whether to pick or not to pick: I do both. It depends on the song. If I’m trying to get a punchy Mike Mills/Paul McCartney melodic line in, I’ll likely be picking. If it simply a groove, there will be all fingers. I probably use the pick more than not, but I certainly can’t be a snob about it any other way…
Now, when it comes to more than four strings…
TB
Chiming in late here to give props to BigSteve for that Harry James video. Try describing that video in words and have it sounds anything but a train wreck. And yet it’s pretty damn cool to my ears.
Just catching up after a week of being off line.
ChickenFrank: Excellent point about Peter Extravaganza. He is the coolest guy in the band, hands down. However, the bar is set so low in the Donuts that if Pete is ever replaced by Bill Wyman, Bill will be the coolest guy in the band.
LEMMY! Coolest bass player ever.
or maybe Overend Watts of Mott The Hoople, just because his name was Overend Watts.
No one here has even mentioned a single bass player who is actually solid at playing the bass guitar.. All I’ve read about so far is one failed guitarist after another, I mean.. Entwistle.. Brilliant?? Realy? Not even HE believed that! And all you others talking about bass players like some farmer talking about his wife’s role in the kitchen! As if there’s some sort of rule to comform to depending on which instrument you play. Let’s face it if your playing a given instrument just to stay in a band when you would realy rather play a diferent instrument, You’re just in it to get laid and if that’s the case your a moron because nothing is more burnt then some idiot trying imitate a bunch of other idiots who could’nt play either just to get attention from the occasional wasted chick who can’t see. That’s the kind of crap that has completely washed down the music business from a profession to a pay to play joke. I don’t even know where to start with mr. bell curve, middle of the road man, female bassist supporter.. GET A LIFE!!
Oh… and by the way The bass line from more today than yesterday… Is utterly beautiful, simple yet filling, melodic and fluent, catchy but not in the way.. Why would anyone criticise it? Maybe you critics should spend more time learning how to play, that way you won’t worry so much about facial hair and foot shuffling, who knows you might even get laid one day if anyone notices your newfound pasion for something…anything in your life.. further more you might be able to stop hanging out at guitar center all day dreaming about being the person you wish you could be while filling peoples ears with fuzzy distortion from a guitar you can’t afford let alone play..
Hmmm… sounds like someone got stuck playing the bass.
Mowgli321 —
Much respect, but I’m afraid you’re not picking up what we’re laying down here. Missing the point is certainly okay, but flaming the community is a bit boring. Here’s what I suggest: check out the posts on the topic of “Mandom,” “Look,” and “Mach Schau” — they should help explain the context for this analysis. Then get back to us with your thoughts. Come to think of it, you might want to check out the glossary entry for “Kentonite” as well.
Always good to hear from newbies/lurkers in the hallowed Hall!
HVB
Hey, Entwistle was a failed horn player!
Paul McCartney was the best guitar player in the Beatles, at least until 1967 or so at the earliest.
Now I’ll go back to dreaming I’m not me.
Mowgli, thanks for agreeing with my previious points! I’m so glad we finally have someone intelligent here who “gets it”! Great funny lines about drunk chicks and losers that play loud guitar at music stores. We should probably hang out together. You seem really cool.
Hey cdm, Did you take some time off from playing tired repeats of tool and rage against the machine for that girl, who thinks your just friends because that’s all she’ll give you and you been beaten down far enough in your life to have learned to take what you can get,with your pointy headed black guitar and your frizzy locks all to reply to me?? Or is she sitting right next to you as we speak?
No. There are people who choose there instrument and have played enough to know the difference between the various instruments of rock.
Mock, I’m well versed in music history especially bass history atleast enough to know Entwistle played the trumpet and the french horn as a youth. Lets face it though most of what he accomplished had more to do with trying to keep up with the craziness around him and less to do with being brilliant.. And McCartney was definitely the best bass player and possibly the best piano player in the Beatles but to even begin to compare him to john and george on the guitar is dubious at best. Take a close listen to johns rythm on all my lovin’
bakshi, yes you are partially correct. I have only read a few entries on this blog but it was enough to piss me off to the point of making my first ever entry on one of these sites.
Chicken, Anytime bro.
Tim Bogert(Vanilla Fudge): There’s a solid bass player if you want to talk about footwork and stage presence…
When the bass player has to supply the lead bit on the lead guitar player’s own composition, like on Taxman, you can make the inference that the bass player may actually be better at guitar too when it comes down to it. It’s not any sort of stretch to realize Paul is the best musician of them. Ain’t dubious at all.
Damn, that Noel Redding was such a loser for agreeing to play second fiddle to Jimi.
HVB’s point was the “look”. Which I can’t comment on, since I’m a bass player that looks pissed off.
Still, this brings up a question for me. Is Keith Richards the best bass player who isn’t the bass player in the band?
Live With Me. Jumpin Jack Flash. Sympathy For The Devil.
Cool look too.
This word “best” is hard to encapsulate, I think it has a diferent meaning to me. You can be a person that plays more fluidly or has even had better training in a given instrument, or maybe you can wiggle your fingers faster, but that’s not what makes for a great musician at all! You’ll have to take my word for it but I am one of those multi-talented musicians that you here about that can play a few instruments quite well, and I know what it’s like to play with someone who on the surface seems to be slightly limited and sluggish at learning but when it comes down to it what he produces is indescribably better than anything I can produce. This person is always the first to tell me I’m so much better than him.. Yet I know his ability to comunicate his emotions to people through guitar strings is far more developed than mine even though I play cleaner and learn much faster.
Or did we all believe that instruments were created to show off finger movement.. NO!! instruments were created for the same reason everything has been… to comunicate!! I contend that if you are the better at comunicating and reaching people with whatever instrument you play than your value as a musician is greater…. hence John Lennon a much greater guitarist than Paul Mc Cartney!!
Let me guess could some of you be the type to say that SRV is better than Hendrix………ok
BTW, There has never been anything I would considder a bass player in the stones.
I guess I deserved all that for even commenting when I avoided doing so in the post’s first full flowering.
I wonder if all those Bob Dylan fans should think he’s a better guitarist than John Lennon.
Mock-on the upper part of the middle of the bell curve-Carr
If they think he reached more people then perhaps they should.. But thats hardly the case. I think Bob was more of a poet than a musician..
Noel Redding… utterly worthless even on stage I don’t blame jimmy for re-recording most of his lines..
jimi, james, whatever
Mowgli,
I’m glad this site incited you to post. Welcome aboard. Your posts have been quite entertaining. Strident and misguided, but entertaining nonetheless.
By the way, your lack of musical knowledge is revealed by the uninformed cheap shot you take at Rage Against the Machine. Tom Morello’s playing is undeniable in its passion. It was only until he showed up that someone managed to knock Satriani off the throne of Greatest Guitarist Ever.
CDM,
WOW!! It was only a matter of time before you brought up the dead give away that you are suffering from musical deafness and impotence SATRIANI..Mr.Numbingly boring note many-gun himself Ha! Ha! No wonder people are tired of posting on here Your moronic ramblings are down right impressive in their ability to hit the bulls-eye of the exact wrong target!! You are priceless indeed! None the less I shall comment on your painfuly sad opinion. That your two picks are even in the top hundred would be a stretch. I wonder, where’s BB king on your list yee illustrius conosuer of finger wiggleing. To finish you off for good I’ll call you on the inevitable fact that you are probably sitting in a small room in your home where you keep all of music “stuff” and you sit and reflect on how it came to be that you ended sanz band yet again left to surf the net dreaming about playing with that band you used to be in before you decided that they were all but medeocrities compared to you. A shame indeed.. If I take long to reply you’ll have to forgive me as I am a working musician and can’t always sit at the computer waiting for the next message..
I want to formally declare myself in favor of finger wiggleing. You’ll have to take my word for it as a multi-talented musician.
For some reason, BigSteve’s comments remind me of Dusty Hill and his thickly calloused index finger — known to roadies and groupies around the globe as “the pleaser.”
Dusty made The Pleaser known to roadies too? I didn’t know he wiggled that way.
Tim Bogert his highly underrated. You hit the nail on the head, mowgli321. I bet these guys never get laid. LOL!
Mowgli,
Now you have issues with Satch? Nice work, dude, there goes what’s left of your credibility.
You were just singing the praises of one of those guys from the Beatles. I’ve heard a bunch of their songs and Satch can play circles around that guitar player.
I admire the fact that you have the courage of your convictions, even though you appear to have no clue about about musicianship and your taste seems questionable at best.
Don’t worry nobody’s perfect bigSTEVE. Wiggle away..
CDM, It seems there is no talking sense into you. Maybe you like to listen to finger diarrhea for extended periods of time without feeling the slightest bit of ANYTHING. Good luck getting a gig. But if my taste is questionable I’m afraid “I’m not the only one”
WARNING: Crazy Suggestion!!!!!:
Listening to the beatles is pleasing.
WOW!! Your right I have no idea what I’m talking about.
Satriani Ruless!!!!!
You picked the right night to revisit this old thread, Mr. Moderator!
We need not lose sight of the topic: What makes for a cool bass player? Maybe people who actually have a vested interest in the wellbeing of the present and future status of BASSPLAYERS around the globe should chime in and begin the seemingly insurmountable task of informing all of these ignoramus musicians who apparrently live in a vacume and still haven’t noticed that the bass is not merely required to “bring the low end”, it’s down right EQUALL IN ALL RESPECTS.
Hence I contend it must be the same traits that make for a cool bass player that do so for a cool musician.
For starters how about a guy who’s not afraid to get his hands dirty when it comes time to do the lifting and set up, how’s that for cool!
How about a guy who shows up when he says he will?
How about a guy who doesn’t get plastered and start tastelessly grandstanding at the first sight of a half decent girl in the croud..
I could go on for a minite here feel free to chime on in….
How about someone who doesn’t stand there and stare at the guitarist thinking to himself “I could play that better than him”
How about someone who won’t sit there and crank up his 810 and destroy every ear in the room because he is too selfish to realise that the band’s vocals sound like drowning mice in an ocean of obsurdly low frequencies he is putting out.
How about a guy who isn’t so confused about what instrument he’s actually playing to the point where he hangs the bass down to his knees violently strumming at it as if he dreamed of being billy joe but there was only one spot left in the band and it wasn’t on the guitar.
Someone who is a bass player and proud to be… What a novel concept..
“Someone who is a bass player and proud to be…”
Mowgli, we finally see eye to eye on something! There are plenty of bass players out there who are proud to be playing the bass and who have the balls to take it to the next level. Fieldy from Korn and Billy Sheehan come to mind. Those guys can shred as well as any guitar player.
I knew we’d find our common ground eventually.
Townsperson mowgli321, as you work through your need to insult everyone around here and be holier than the rest of us when it comes to opinions on what makes a cool bass player, you actually begin sounding more and more like those of us who have been commenting on this subject. It’s not so bad, is it? I am sincerely interested in seeing your list of the Top 5 coolest bass players, in your opinion, of course. Thanks.
Mowgli, I feel you, man. My Daddy was a bass player, and he left my Momma and me to join a speed metal band. Our trio was reduced to a duo. I’ll never forget how forlorn Momma looked behind the traps. I HATE ALL bass players. Loud, selfish, non-dirty handed, roving-eye bastards! WHY, DADDY, WHY!!
Mowgli,
I’m sure there will be no shortage of people who don’t agree with our idea of great bass playing,but take heart, other will step into the daylight and acknowledge that they too are on Team Fieldy/Sheehan.
As for the Mod and the Chicken, don’t listen to those neophytes. They are the kind of guys who think Steve Vai is the gold standard for guitar playing. If they would take a minute to clean the crap out of their ears, they would realize that Vai is just a poor man’s Yngwie Malmsteen, who is, in turn, a destitute man’s Satch.
sounds like mowgli321 has been in some horrible bands. Play with professionals and you wont have these issues
The bass player is driving the car, but he is not the shiny chrome wheels or sparkling hood ornament (that’s what the singer and guitarist are there for)
Also a poor bassist will ruin any band (see The Strokes)
Don’t put words in my mouth, cdm. I’m all about Holdsworth when it comes to tasty guitar playing.
Holdsworth is a pauper’s Eric Johnson. Everyone knows that.
God, this takes me back to my high school days when my metalhead friends would try to tell me how lame the Beatles were and that as someone really interested in moozik I had to check out how awesome Yngwie J. Malmsteen was. Oh, man, and Randy Rhoads, don’t even start on Randy, man, he’s gone to a better place. I know you’re not into metal, man, but you gotta admit BlahBlah is an awwwwesome moozician.
Oh, the voices in my head, how they torment me!
And any time someone in Vanilla Sludge is extolled: pure, unabated Kentonism. Oh, the band sucked, but what musicianship!
Everybody knows the greatest moment in all bass-dom occurs at 3:55 of the following video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0C611xMfIQ
hrrundivbakshi–wow, I don’t believe I had seen that in over 20 years. That Steve Vai, man, he could make a guitar speak! No, literally. Too funny.
What you have there is your classic embarrassment of riches.
Nice work, HBV. I’ll still need to clear it with my co-founder Mowgli, but I think it’s safe to say that we have a spot for you on Team Sheehan!
The only thing that could make that video/song better would be David Lee Roth had had the sense/balls to swing for the fences and hire Satch.
… instead of that hack Steve Vai.
Nice going, now my ears will not be able to hear any more notes for a week.
I didn’t realize what was missing in bass posturing until that color guard training was employed by that guy in Diamond Dave’s band.
How about a guy won’t swing a pink bass around like a baton..
ps. The bass player from the strokes, though lacking any personality whatsoever is just fine with me.
Now I see why CDM won’t accept the Beatles THEIR NOT WEARING BUTTLESS CHAPS!!
Talk about loss of credibility..
It’s ok CDM I aint mad at you we’re just on opposite sides of the taste spectrum.
Moderater if you read carefully I haven’t insulted anyone on here personally. I don’t claim to have a holy opinion I just have an opinion and back it up. Anyhow you wanted my top five but I will try to reach five.
1. Jaco
2. Jerry Jemmot
3. James Jamerson
4. Tommy cogbill
5. Paul McCartney
The last three are interchangeable though I could care less where they fall on the count down..
Now for my finger wiggler’s top 5(Though I think these guys should be trying out for an olympic sport rather than playing music)cdm will like these:
1. victor wooten
2. Marcus miller
3. Victor bailey
4. Flea
5. Les Claypool
ps. I love and respect all of these guys but their playing styles are simply not that cool
See 1:50 for tasty guitar…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krsCEr-6V5Y
CDM, you might learn something about bass when you succeed in saying one thing about it without following it up with two things about the guitar..
Bass
Guitar
Notice the names are even diferent.
HVB, That’s a great move! He should at least pretend he’s still playing though.
I think if the Beatles wore assless chaps, Brian Epstein would have found them a lot earlier.
Uh mowgli, dude, on the insulting front, do you remember saying this?
“CDM,
WOW!! It was only a matter of time before you brought up the dead give away that you are suffering from musical deafness and impotence”
That sounds like an insult to me. Lighten up, ok? People around here are often not 100% serious in their posts, and your comments have inspired a wave of irony you may not be fully aware of.
mowgli321, I don’t want to harp on it, especially because you’ve been backing up yourself with some strong and well-stated opinions, but when you say you haven’t insulted anyone “personally” you overlook statements such as this bouquet:
Sure, this wasn’t a “personal” attack on any one person, and if anyone’s really offended by your tired blanket insults they should log onto puppiesrus.com. The point is, you chose to enter the party like a self-righteous dick, which I’m sure you’re not. I’m way over it, and I’m really glad you’re laying some cards on the table. I’m still not real clear about your criteria, however. I mean, if Lennon’s a better musican than McCartney because he resonated more deeply with 52% of Beatles fans vs the 48% who were more deeply moved by McCartney’s music, then how do you rank Jaco ahead of McCartney or even Billy Sheehan? Did I misread the importance you gave to a musician’s ability to reach audiences? I hope so – I’d like this think this is more than a popularity contest.
Getting back to your blanket statements about us needing to work harder at being multi-talented working musicians like yourself and spending less time as armchair critics I say, Come on, why do you think we come here? If we were that hellbent on becoming multi-talented working musicians we’d drop the proper use of apostrophes when we do express feelings of superiority and outrage in posts here, that is, in those rare moments when we’re not either honing our chops or getting some sweet poontang.
Our “work” here is not meant to replace or ignore the work of multi-talented working musicians. Rock Town Hall is a place where we allow the works of you and your colleagues to resonate. If you really want to get a sense of how a musician’s work resonates beyond the stage the night of a particular concert, this isn’t a bad place to gauge that dynamic, at least for music that’s within the broad spectrum of our collective tastes.
Finally, if we haven’t made it clear by the thousands of threads and, hell, the overall design of this site, we’re about having fun with our love of music and our acknowledged obsessions and frequently unproductive comments. You take care of your chops and your sex life and each of us will take care of our own. There are a number of multi-talented working musicians who count themselves among the active members of RTH. From what I’ve heard, they’re even managing to get laid between woodshedding and their contributions to the blog. You’ve managed to carve out some time for us these last couple of days. I really hope you are able to continue managing your time so that you can keep current and in the flow with our daily discussions. You said you were initially pissed off by the first few posts you read here. I hope you’ve had time to explore other threads and realize that not every topic makes you feel like we don’t have a clue what we’re talking about and that only you can set us free. Or, if you can set us free, we will likely welcome the assistance. Thanks.
Mod, you continue to be one of the classiest guys on the internet.
Inspired by your post, I will pledge to stop screwing with Mowgli (even though I haven’t had this much fun posting since I insisted that Georgetown was an Ivy League school on some other, non-music site).
Mowgli, please keep in mind that it’s only rock and roll.
Peace.
MOD,
Speaking of bigSTEVE’S irony,
Ironic his how your replys to me have been worded with such flowering hospitality and apreciation yet I can’t help but notice your deep rooted insecurities coming through in the way you lay down your veiled pleedings for me to leave you where you were before I started here, holding steadfast to your title as most classy guy on the internet.
You asked for my top top 5 BASS PLAYERS.
not my my top five musicians or songwriters or performers for that mater. It doesn’t surprise me that you failed to follow the rythm of my verbal gymnastics with respect to CDM who, by the way, comforts himself in thinking he’s fooling people with his failed attempts to sound like he’s partaking in idle banter with a fellow “townsmen” when everyone can see he’s dying inside at the realization that his long held suspicions of self-mediocrety are at risk of being vindicated by me on this very site.
I’m glad i struck a chord with you MOD with my self proclaimed status of multitalent and interspective prowess. I’m glad that you reached the point of personally attacking me “you chose to enter the party like a self-righteous dick.” And broke the language barier when it comes to cussing.
Maybe now you WILL take some of your own advice
“You take care of your chops and your sex life and each of us will take care of our own.”
That statement doesn’t make me feel much like a “townsmen” rings more of an impotent break-up attempt or something of that nature.
bigSTEVE, save your interperatations for yourself big GUY.. with your use phrases like “people around here” well… let’s just say I don’t need to here anything further from you.
Cdm, I had no idea you were dying inside. Don’t keep these things to yourself. Call one of us if you need someone to pick up a prescription or something.
I can’t tell if Mowgli is trolling or if he really is wound this tight but either way, I am laughing out loud right now. Entertaining stuff. Sort of like a music obsessed, ineloquent version of my favorite anti-hero Ignatius P. Reilly.
Thanks Big Steve but I prefer to keep it all bottled up inside until I just go ape shit one day.
Taday’s as good a day as any CDM!
This is awesome. Is someone going to slap someone else with a patent leather glove and demand satisfaction on the field of honour? Will seconds be calling on seconds? Pistols at dawn?
Regarding the poll:
Gergely is much funnier,
Sally is much nicer,
Berlyant uses many more parentheses,
Sat is much more insightful,
and all are much better writers.
My guess is that this is a brand new person who is trolling.
CDM
Nice to see you have now assumed the new possition, which is perhaps much more suited to you, as sort of an eager student figure. Analyzing my every entry as if it were asigned to you to do so by a junior college professor.
Let me save you the suspence I am new and I am not trolling. Infact I’m having a great time partaking in this elegant discourse.
“Analyzing my every entry as if it were asigned to you to do so by a junior college professor”
Hmmm, interesting..Students take notice how he exaggerates that “EVERY” entry has been analyzed by CDM. One could suspect that this may be a flattered exaggeration of the attention he seeks? Class, take note of the use of “junior” college professor as a means to reinstate his needed position of dominance, like perhaps, the male bull on a farm. And oh my, why the word “entry”? Is there perhaps a hidden sexual urge a play here? So much to decipher in these words. I will be breaking them down further in our next class.
Junior Professor Wanna Be Float
“Hmmm, interesting..”
Perhaps for someone junior college may have been an overestimation…
My quest for total dominance on this oxen rich bull’s paradise has just been spotted by the the scrutinous eye of oneinthethroat… excuse me let me re’enter’ that… underthefloat.. AAAHHH there it is..
it’s good to see that he doesn’t miss even the slightest opportunity to contemplate things in a sexual conotation while in an intellectual discourse WITH A BUNCH OF GUYS…
“Hmmm, interesting..”
It seems everyone is tapped out on music talk, I thought that was the whole point..??
“Hmmm, interesting..”
mowgli,
I prefer Alphonso Johnson‘s Weather Report bassin’ to Jaco. Agreed that Jaco was a phenomenal and inventive player, but he just didn’t make the bottom bubble like Johnson, especially on Talespinnin’. Too much flash, not enough feel.
Agree to dissagree I guess. I admit I haven’t heard enough of Alfonso’s stuff to make any worthy comments but I must say ,for me, Jaco’s where it’s at. Have you really listened to any of his solo work “continuum” in particular?? To me that is feeling..
Wow. I didn’t think there were five bass players in the world. I always figured it was Bill Wyman, that guy from The Beatles, Chris Squire and then just some guy that Bernard Purdie tossed in as a bonus as part of his fee for making hit records.
There’s a local band around here I really like called The Hot Rails, and they’re sort of influenced by Blue Oyster Cult and Thin Lizzy, I guess. Anyway, their bass player appears to be the most dedicated because he has a rig that looks very similar to a giant computer with giant speakers. I think it cost more than my car.
Oh yeah, did someone mention Vanilla Fudge and it wasn’t intended as a joke? We really can’t let our standards fall that low, can we? I always thought they just used the natural turntable rumble as their bass foundation anyway.
Two minutes before the cameras rolled on the clip, the singer of The Spiral Starecase totally “promised” the bass player that the bass player’s song will be the next single.
Don’t assume that we’re all a bunch of guys.
Well I did say I didn’t think my list would reach five…
I guess that’s not bad since there have only been been five guitarists..
My bad bigSTACY?
Hey mowgli321,
I was away from a computer this week-end. Just so you know, my post was INTENDED as an over the top bad professor with some overreaching bad analysis. I thought my sign off would make my intent clear that I was playing around and not serious… but I can see how it may not have been, er wasn’t. Well, sure tweaking your cranky, know it all style was a lesser secondary aim but mainly I was just goofing around. Anyway, such is email attempted humor sometimes and really it was probably to out of context for anyone to get.
So, sorry for the confusion and sorry for reawakening all your scary homosexual anxieties!! You can now safely put them back to bed (really, calm down, no pun intended!!)
As you said in another reply, back to the music. Or, rather…let me guess, one more jab at me post and THEN back to the music.
under,
No, your your right, back to the music..
That’s a good idea fag.
Seriousely though I think you may be a half decent dude after all.
By the way I did get your humor on that reply and contrary to what some of these dudes think I AM joking most of the time, exept when I talk about bass, that tends to be more of a serius topic for me.
Whether you’re serious or joking, keep the “fag” comments to yourself or get lost.
YOU GET LOST!! INSECURE MORON!!THAT’S YOUR DAMN PROBLEM bigSTEVE YOU THINK YOU CAN CONTROL WHO DOES OR SAYS WHAT WHEN AND WHERE THEY DO IT!!
NO, I DON’T THINK I WILL BE SILENCED BY YOU!!!
YOU GET LOST!!
Anyone who thinks bigSTACY should be the all time sensor of their voice let it be known…
Shame on you! Your complex of superiority and backward dilusions of control STINK!! Further more they have no place in an environment of FREE EXPRESSION such as this…..
Any other useful coments you frustrated closeted homosexual???
Let me know
Definitely trolling.
I noticed that mowgli’s appearance on this board coincided with college break.
The horrendous spelling and inability to write a cohesive sentence are making me think this is the handiwork of a bored, remedial student from a community college.
It’s impossible to miss the fact that bigSTACY and classmate CDM, seem to pounce into a comment when the words “dick” or “fag” show up in a message..
CDM, I’m less concerned about my spelling than I am worried for the wellbeing of the people of your surrounding community, what with your puzzelingly prevalent knowledge of college class schedules…
Maybe I’ve seen too many crime shows but still…… weird.
Thanks for sticking a corn-cob in this guy’s pie-hole, Mod. No more Mr. Nice-guy — this guy is an ass. Can we end 2009 with a first? I mean, with our first RTH banning?
mowgli321, with all due respect to your bass knowledge and your desire to talk about music with us and not be told what you can and cannot say, why don’t you try commenting on any one of the thousands of other posts here and see if you can add to the discussion?
You’ve introduced yourself and pissed out your territory like so many of us do one way or the other. I’ve “deleted” your offensive attack on a request from BigSteve to make it clear that that stuff doesn’t fly around here. Your spirit is welcome, but be a good egg in how you address others, all right? I’m not asking you to be perfect and boring, but honestly, this is as good a time to remind myself and others here to let this crap pass and honestly get back to what makes this place fun for as many people as possible.
I’ll stop insulting you and making further assumptions about you, and I’ll ask everyone else to do likewise. Can you try that yourself and see if there’s any fun to be had with people around here in a way that promotes dialog? I’ll back you up if any more of this nonsense continues against you, but I’ll cut you off in no time if you keep lashing out at others with homophobic insults and whatever else you’ve got up your sleeve. It’s usually cool to insult another Townsperson for his or her taste, but a line needs to be drawn at personal attacks. If you can’t get by without going there, I’ll show you the door. Thanks.
My fav “cool” bass player is Paul Simonon. He always did this little marching-in-place thing as if he were constantly re-planting himself on stage for maximum leverage. Plus he wore his bass the way it should be worn … very, very low.
Honestly, I have always used my fingers. Though you can’t pluck as hard, the sound is much smoother and you can pluck just about anything faster than you can pick. A musician who doesn’t use a pick has stronger fingers and better technique. But it all really depends on if you are a metal player or not. I’m not.
Welcome aboard, BrainLeech412. Great handle!