The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Nominees have been announced.
And the nominees are: Beastie Boys, Chic, LL Cool J, the J. Geils Band, Darlene Love, Laura Nyro, Donna Summer, Joe Tex, Chuck Willis, Alice Cooper, Bon Jovi, Neil Diamond, Donovan, Dr. John, and Tom Waits.
Perhaps I’m still holding a grudge against Bon Jovi for his lunkheaded comments about The Replacements (“Last Great band of the decade? I don’t even know who they are.”) in the late ’80s, but really, the fact that he and Tom Waits might be sharing the same honor on the same night for their contributions is ridiculous. (Jon, if you’re reading this, Tom Waits is the guy who wrote that song “Downtown Train,” which Rod Stewart ended up butchering.)
Now, JBJ seems like a nice enough guy in interviews, he’s certainly worked hard to get where he is, and he’s sold a bazillion albums. But is that really what it should take to get into the RRHoF? How about KISS? They have the artistic heft of JBJ but I would argue that they were much more influential. Why not them? Too crass?
And I’m not trying to pick on him, he just happens to be in the same class as Tom Waits. I could pick any number of past inductees.
Who hasn’t been inducted? The Replacements, Husker Du, MC5, Buzzcocks…
Who do you think is being unjustly ignored? Who is already in but should be asked to leave?
Previously: Rock Town Hall Interviews the Rock ‘n Roll Hall of Fame’s Curator.
The entire notion of be elected to a Hall of Fame for anything lacking statistics annoys me to no end. It should just be a museum and stop the nonsense of pretending that any of the nominees in years like this one are worthy of induction. It’s what these artists have DONE that should be inducted, not the artists themselves. They’ve already inducted plenty of obvious artists. Jon Bon Jovi or Tom Waits, I’m scratching my head.
I think Big Star should be in there. But what do I know?
If you get a chance, go look at VH1 100 Greatest Artists. This was supposedly declared by ballots sent out to other artists. It’s a compacted version of what’s wrong with these types of things. Michael Jackson is ranked number two. Second? I will give him top ten, but second? I suppose if Rick Astley had died recently he would have been ranked. Chuck Berry was number 25. No Buddy, no Jerry Lee…just see for yourself.
This leads me to the Rock Hall and a valid question: Why not The Monkees? I know. They weren’t a “real” band. To include them would be almost admitting the shallowness of the esteemed Hall. Then again, they did sort of invent MTV, some of their records could be seen as innovative, and Nez had a hand in inventing country-rock. Those are all pretty serious contributions.
I guess they have to make room for greater artists like JBV.
TB
Big Star is an excellent call.
I feel like this narrative of the “great bands of rock and roll” is being written by people in their 60’s, and it is one that is feeling more antiquated as the years pass. I think most music fans under thirty would think Joy Division and The Cure should be in there and it has to be some personal beef keeping Kiss outta there, like square parents who think they’re anti-Chrisitan or something.
See, here’s where my sports perspective comes into play: I dig Big Star and Joy Division, for instance, as much as the next Townsperson, but these artists faded within three albums. In baseball terms, they’re like George Foster, who had that brief, brilliant stretch of power hitting between an otherwise pedestrian beginning and end to his career. OK, in the case of Joy Division, who suffered the actual loss of its leader, they’re like Tony Conigliaro or Lymon Bostock.
On the other hand, the RnRHoF awards all these long-time hacks, the Bon Jovis and Jefferson Airsucks of the music world. In baseball terms this is the equivalent of electing Jim (not Gaylord) or Joe (not Phil) Niekro to the Hall of Fame.
There should be some criteria for inclusion as a member; the artist should be a titan, a trendsetter, a visionary, etc, not just a hitmaker or a cool, influential underground artist. Those types are worthy of a display for their great works, but they don’t deserve a plaque. In baseball terms, this would be along the lines of barely mediocre Yankees’ pitcher Don Larson’s World Series perfect game getting a display but Larson himself having no chance of entry into the Hall.
The Stooges faded after three albums too, but I think they belong in there, and I’m glad the HoF let them in.
In general I’m a supporter of the concept, but once they inducted hacks like Seger and Aerosmith I had to withdraw my support. I like the Rascals, but there’s no way they belong. And Leonard Cohen? He’s a genius, but he doesn’t belong in the rock hall. Same with this year’s Laura Nyro nomination.
I think I can see what you’re getting at, although with all those baseball names might as well chemical equations to me. So you’d throw out Buddy Holly, Chuck Berry, Jerry Lee Lewis and everybody else who’s died or been recycling their same act to decades on end? I think that probably leaves room for ten or twenty artists who fit your criteria. Cool and influential isn’t enough? Joy Division is a great example, barely promoted in the U.S., their records have never gone out of print and they continue to reverberate with each generation. In think telling a younger audience that these bands aren’t worthy is what is going to hobble the museum over the long run, just like Wynton Marsalis’ conservative, reductive ideas on what “jazz” is.
No, I wouldn’t throw out Buddy Holly. The Baseball HoF made special exceptions for Sandy Koufax (spectacular career cut short in its prime due to injury) and Roberto Clemente (plane crash) and allowed them to be inducted without the customary 5-year wait period (or is it 6 years). Once you get past titanic artists, though, I think any arts hall of fame is comparing apples to oranges. All the others get recognized in the museum.
The baseball analogy stinks, you would start talking about top 10 lists and album and singles sales to corroborate it. Football makes more sense, since a lot of those offensive lineman have no stats but games played or pro bowls or something.
Alex Chilton sizes up as a candidate, there’s the Box Tops with the hits, Big Star with the critical cred and influence, and his own iconoclastic solo career. Plus the guy just died so they can do it too late like always.
I’m good with Alice Cooper and Darline Love getting in this year. Beasies should get in too. Neil Diamond will get in. bon jovi will wait a few years. Tom Waits is a shoe-in.
Rush, ELO, Dire Straits, Hall & Oates for 2011 (prepare for RTH flaming now)
Replacements and Big Star are not known outside of us music-freaks and a handfull of 35 year old hipsters.
Good point about the Pro Football Hall of Fame model possibly being more applicable, mockcarr. I still can’t help but feel depressed and helpless in the face of the yearly RnRHoF induction process.
“Replacements and Big Star are not known outside of us music-freaks and a handful of 35 year old hipsters.”
But how much of the general public knew about the Velvet Underground? Or the Stooges? Just because only art historians and a handful of others know the name Gerard van Honthorst, doesn’t mean that his work shouldn’t be hanging in the Louvre.
According to an unassailable source (Wikipedia), there are 194 Halls of Fame for every kind of thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_halls_and_walks_of_fame
There are 23 dedicated to music alone (and they missed the Philadelphia Walk of Fame on Broad St).
There are published criteria for inclusion and some sales or awards stats but mostly it is a promoter’s enterprise. Bon Jovi is a whore, if elected he’ll show up and thousands of low-level fans will tune in to VH1. Maybe Kiss is too big a whore to be considered, kind of like Pete Rose. The critical nominations (Chuck Willis, Tom Waits) are just outlets for some experts to flex their big brains for us. That said, at least rock n roll has good artifacts to visit – I would go if I ever get to Cleveland – but I won’t take their judgments very seriously.
cdm wrote:
Certainly I’m beating a dead horse, but that’s part of the fun of RTH, no? This gets back to my feeling that the focus should be on the museum aspect of the RnRHoF. When an art museum displays new works, they don’t “induct” the artist, do they? The ceremony should focus on the curating aspect of what this new artist is bringing to the museum. Then there might be some more justification for who – or what – gets in. What’s Bon Jovi going to bring to the exhibit, a used bottle of hair dye and the stone-washed jeans Richie Sambora wore on the band’s 1985 tour?
Also, to continue beating my sports Hall of Fame analogy, inductees from the relatively recent past (they must be voted in within a certain amount of time after their eligibility kicks in) ARE well known. As a pretty steady football fan (but nowhere near fanatic, as I am about baseball and music) I know who the offensive linemen are who get elected. The pre-rock artists who get inducted in the RnRHOF should be elected by what the baseball hall calls its “Veterans Committee.” Maybe the hall in Cleveland already does that. I can’t remember. Big Star, the VU, the Stooges, and others who failed to conquer when they had the public’s ear could get in through a “Rock Nerd’s Committee,” but let’s not pretend those artists are on par with the likes of The Beatles, The Stones, and CSNY. I’m kidding about that last band, whose career would also prove to have reached no greater than George Foster levels, if only rock ‘n roll kept better stats!
Oh, and like k. said, I’d very much like to visit that place sometime.
I think Jim’s persistence is paying off because, although I’m not really following the sports references, I’m with him on the Museum vs Hall Of Fame things.
I think that “Fame” is the key part of the Hall of Fame (It’s not in a hall either).
Bon Jovi have all of these guys beat in the “fame” category
I think it takes quite a consensus to get nominated, which is going to weed out most artists who are not well known (Big Star, Television, XTC) and ones that are particulary polarizing (KISS, RUSH)
Mod, would you get with it? Sambora didn’t wear stone-washed jeans on the 1985 tour, those were acid washed. Sometimes your ignorance of rock history is just incredible, man.
I’m out of it. Is Pink Floyd in? They seem to have the heft the Hall is looking for, no?
Gotta love the laugh track on the Waits song.
I like the Rock HOF. I think the museum is super, and the HOF thing is kind of a cool idea. The problem is, they induct WAY too many people. Rock’s been around sixty years or so, and they’ve been in existence for fifteen or so, I think. I think they should just be hitting inducting The Beatles about now.
But Jon Bon Jovi? He’s not even the coolest guy in the room when he’s in the room alone.
Floyd went in in ’96. Their fellow classmates included David Bowie (per HoF law: “…all inductees must have at least 29 great songs”), Gladys & The Pips, Jefferson Airplane, Little Willie John, The Shirelles and The Velvet Underground (as they were meant to be inducted).
For comparison’s sake, the Baseball Writers Association of America opted to induct no one in 1996. The Veterans Committee did, however, use their position to add four people to the Hall: Jim Bunning, Earl Weaver, Bill Foster and Ned Hanlon.
Keith Hernandez became eligible in 1996 and was not inducted, nor has he been since. I think a case could be made the Bon Jovi is a Keith Hernandez equivalent. Hernandez won his only World Series with the Mets in 1986, while Bon Jovi broke through that year with Slippery When Wet and its two #1 singles. Similarly, Hernandez has an excellent moustache, while Jon Bon Jovi has famous hair. I wouldn’t put either into their respective Halls of Fame, though I would consider giving Hernandez a Lifetime Achievement Emmy for his work on Seinfeld, which trumps Jon Bon Jovi’s appearance on Uncle Floyd.
Of course, Bon Jovi will get in, because they need someone to get viewers if they’re going to put this on TV, even though they shouldn’t get in at all, much less before KISS or The Monkees. So I say we move on to the important question: Who do they get to induct them? I assume Jon Bon Jovi will be pushing hard for Springsteen, who would obviously never do it. So do they throw some cash at Mellencamp, who might be willing to play ball? Who else fits into that “more famous than Bon Jovi, but not so famous that they’d still be willing to pretend to like Bon Jovi for a paycheck” category?
Whoever it is, I can assume that the gig will come with bullet points about records sold and continuing to spread that notion that Bon Jovi and Sambora “invented unplugged music.”
Excellent question, alexmagic. I definitely don’t see Mellencamp stooping to this. He’s a Real American Folk Hero now, with his mono record recorded on one of Edison’s gizmos. Springsteen is obviously the target, but I’d say he pawns the job off on Little Steven, who will blather on about Bon Jovi’s garage-rock cred.
The HoF also has the option of guilt-tripping or blackmailing a young ‘un to induct Bon Jovi. Justin Timberlake inducted Madonna and that dude from Maroon 5 had something to do with The Hollies’ induction. I don’t know, maybe he just sang with them. Anyway, I expect the HoF to look to the new generation of talentless poseurs to properly give Bon Jovi his due.
Obviously? I don’t think it’s obvious at all. I put it at at least 50/50, with Little Steven a lock to step in if Springsteen doesn’t do it.
Has anyone refused the honor? I saw on the Wikipedia site that the Sex Pistols refused to show up (but are still considered HoFers).
Also according to Wiki, “”Nominees should have demonstrated influence and significance within the history of Rock and Roll.” A committee of “music historians”select names and then this group is voted on by a 1000 “experts.” Nominees are those who have the highest ranking of people/groups who get more than 50% of the vote. Because of the changeable definitions of “music historians,” and “experts” there has been some controversy about the final winner. Don’t you think that we, the glorious family of RTHers, would qualify in both of those categories?????
As for Mr. Bon Jovi, I like to reference the news source Talk Media News, as they described him as “NJ rock outfit Bon Jovi.” Note the use of words: OUTFIT. I think that says all I need to know. Acid washed or stone washed.
Talk Media News also referred to another inductee, Donovan, as “The British Answer to Bob Dylan.” If that doesn’t spark a fire, I don’t know what will.
In due time RTH will be represented in the voting, ladymiss. Good point.
If Donovan was the British answer to Dylan then the answer was INCORRECT!
I reckon some second- or third-string classic rocker will induct Bon Jovi — like Tommy Shaw, or Ted Nugent. Barring that, a shock move by Pete Townshend, who will claim — perhaps truthfully — that he sees some intrinsic value to bands like BJ; that they “keep rock alive” or something.
I always wondered if Keith Richards’ induction speech for ZZ Top was heartfelt. It just seemed so weird to me.
I really do think the RRHOF gets it right most of the time. Whoever said there are too many inductees was 100% correct. But while it’s a sham that some major prog and arena rockers (ELP, Jethro Tull, Kansas, Journey, King Crimson, Procol Harum, Rush, Styx, Yes) have not been voted in, that also makes me believe the voters are on to something. If keeping prog rockers out is wrong, I don’t want to be right.
The most egregious induction… Billy Joel.
I completely agree with teek. The RRHOF (with the recent exception of Genesis and Peter Gabriel) has always ignored prog rock. Prog has had a tremendous influence on rock music and rock musicians that have followed. I’m pretty sure that RUSH and YES meets their nominating criteria (times 10). I am right with you teek with every group you mentioned. And how anyone can deny King Crimson’s influence defy’s any laws of physics.
It’s not the RRHOF it’s the Jan Wenner Hall of Fame. Just as he determined the exposure that these groups would get when he was the publisher of Rolling Stone, he determines who gets into the RRHOF. I completely dismiss the RRHOF – it’s a joke.
I don’t care for Rush, but among prog-rock bands I can’t believe Yes is not in. I’d take them over half of the other bands that have been inducted in recent years (including bands I love, such as The Stooges) – and I’m not anywhere near the world’s greatest prog-rock or Yes fan. What’s amazing about Yes, though, is that they managed to be so tuneful while being so weird. How many bands can play 10-minute long, multi-movement compositions that you can hum along to? They managed to both expand rock ‘n roll while staying true to its populist purpose.
Genesis, on the other hand, makes very little sense to me, but Gabriel and Collins became such big sellers on their own in the ’80s that I can see why the industry would reward them with their induction.
Of bands not yet in the RnR HoF, I wonder if I’d think anyone is more deserving than Yes. No joke – you know I’m all about the titans of rock, when it comes to this thing. I can live with the fact that my beloved bands like the Buzzcocks are nowhere near induction. Is Skynyrd in? They must be because so many key members died tragically. If not, they’d be another band I don’t love but think was titanic in influence and scope.
the real question: will Russ Kunkel ever get in? And why not? Why not shine the light on position players who have had a long career?
Springsteen is a lock for the Bon Jovi introduction.
They’ve appeared on stage together many times in recent years.
Also, as a New Jersey native, I can tell you that the bond forged by being from a state that is routinely used as a punchline is a strong one. If asked, Bruce has to do this. Hell, I don’t like Bob Jovi at all but I’d do it if he asked me.
Now, what with these references to Bon Jovi as a garage-rocker? That stuff sounds like arena rock, even Runaway.
There is a sideman catagory. Russ Kunkel is just going to have to wait his turn. Jim Keltner, Jim Gordon and Bernard “Pretty” Purdie aren’t even in there yet
I have no use for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as a measure of artistic worth. As a fundraiser for the actual museum though, it has its place. But honestly, does anyone care who gets inducted? I’ve been to the Country Music Hall of Fame and what impressed me most was Webb Pierce’s tricked out Pontiac Bonneville ( http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a21/txspreacher/bonneville_inside.jp )not who had been voted into the Hall of Fame. I already know who deserves to be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, as does, I’m sure, everyone how posts here. And, you know what? All of our Hall of Fames are different.
I don’t like Rush at all, but I would go to bat for them as a Hall of Fame caliber band, in the same way that I think Barry Bonds is a world class jerk but would have agreed that pre-gianthead Bonds was worthy of the baseball Hall. I have a higher Yes tolerance and would put them in, too.
Bon Jovi qualifies as garage rock in the sense that you would be likely to hear Bon Jovi songs played on the radio while your car was being worked on at AAMCO or Meineke.
“I’m not gonna pay a lot for this muffler! But I will listen to Wanted Dead Or Alive while you take forty minutes to get my car down off the goddamn lift!”
Presumably, Bernard Purdie was secretly inducted later that night in both 1988 and 1989 as a member of the Beatles and Stones. Ringo and Charlie probably had to give their plaques to Purdie in the kitchen on their way out. This is why they let Iggy wander around in the kitchen on live TV in 2008, since there have been no revelations yet that Purdie programmed the drum machines on “Material Girl” or provided the original handclaps on “Jack and Diane”. Yet.
So, looking at a list of the inductees, what was the first year they got something wrong or questionable? How about Clyde McPhatter – the first two-time inductee – going in as a solo artist a year before going in as a Drifter?
I’m probably missing some other worthy candidates for consideration, but the current poll is an attempt to see what as-yet-overlooked artists might be most deserving of induction. The hard part is leaving personal tastes/rooting interests out of the equation, even a little bit. I was leaning toward Yes, but then I was shocked to see that Giorgio Moroder wasn’t already in the HoF. I don’t like what he brought to dance music, but he’s THE major historical and commercial figure who stands out to me as not already having been inducted.
Can you update the poll to include Big Star and the MC5 please? And please remove the Cars. For my part, I’ll refrain from voting for my beloved Replacements.
Kraftwerk should be in there.
I’ve always tried not to be a musical snob. I figure if an artist’s music moves the masses then it’s a success even if I hate it. I have no idea what the criteria is but it’s watered down to the point that it’s pretty meaningless. There are groups like the Beatles or Hendrix who changed the course of history and there are others who sold millions of records. I suppose both factions are worthy. To me, the best thing about the HoF is some of the performances at the ceremony. This http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifp_SVrlurY&feature=related
is one of my all time favorites. Prince going old school with a telecaster.
I know it’s an honor for the musicians but I could do without the jerkfest that goes on with the inductions. Springsteen inducting U2 was unwatchable. Dude, your just a musician not Jesus. On the other hand when my friend Percy Sledge was inducted he was full of humility and gratitude for his fans.
Which brings up another angle, Percy had one mega-hit, “When A Man Loves A Woman”. As significant as it was is that enough? He’s 68 and still gets out and plays, after he was inducted his price went way up. His agent also has Jerry Lee Lewis under contract and the same is true with him. It’s a great help for old legends in their twilight to reap the rewards that weren’t always forthcoming in their day. Of Course it’s the agent who really makes out. I wonder how much politics plays into the equation.
While I voted for Rush in the poll (any Canadians in there besides Neil Young?), I think Jethro Tull is the most worthy progger not in the Hall.
Zevon and the Cars are a shoe-in for a later year and I like the idea of Black Flag as the sole representative of California hardcore.
I’m disappointed that so many Townspeople – who have access to the world famous Rock Town Hall Labs – are content to throw their hands up and just say you can’t determine one band being better than others.
Of course you can, it’s just that no one has broken ground on the stats needed to measure things!
Some time back, I floated the idea of SWLABRmetrics, which could be the rock equivalent of baseball stat geeks’ SABRmetrics, the highly specialized figures they use to rate the value of players.
So far, as potential SWLABRmetric categories, I’ve come up with:
– VORDM (Value Over Replacement Drum Machine), which would quantify the value a drummer brings to a band that would be lost if he or she was swapped out for a preprogrammed replacement or drum samples
– Windmill Shares – measures the effectiveness of physical or mechanical gimmicks employed by a guitarist (such as windmills, playing behind the back or with one’s teeth, use of violin bows, setting a guitar on fire, etc.)
– SIGN (Solo Impact divided by Guitar Necks) – measures the number of quality solos by a lead guitarist divided by the number of necks on his guitar
For the record, I am in no way endorsing the artistic merit of prog. My collection is prog-free. But I can’t deny the mass appeal and influence of major progsters, so while it’s a sham that the RRHOF keeps them out, I’m quite content with that particular sham.
cdm asked:
Sorry, but Big Star gets in through the “Rock Snob’s Committee,” and, musically, MC5 is almost worthless. This poll needs to focus on more titanic contributors.
Mod, both are hugely influential.
Alexmagic, once again, you have significantly advanced the science of Rock. One small quibble: shouldn’t the number of quality solos by a lead guitarist be multiplied by the number of necks on his guitar rather than divided?
I would hate for this stat to have a chilling effect on the number of multi neck guitars out there.
gregg asks:
First of all, it’s cool that Percy’s your friend. If he ever wants to chat with the Hall, let him know we’d love to talk to him. That said, I think the answer is a resounding NO! I saw Sledge live about 12 years ago, in a soul revue, and he was great and charming and even inspiring, but put a gun to the head of almost any huge music fan and we probably can’t name a second song by the man. I think he got in as part of the Atlantic Records connection, which I remember being discussed as a political factor in the first 10 years or so. I think Atlantic may have had much to do with launching the HoF.
I agree that Big Star is highly influential, cdm, but I’m sorry, I like the MC5, but take away the “motherfucker” intro and their stage antics and they’re not much better or worse than HVB’s near fourth member of his Holy Trinity of Rock, Ted Nugent. The second album, which was totally thinned out by producer Jon Landau, may be their best – and it doesn’t even sound like them. Kick Out the Jams has a ton of worthwhile firepower, but the songs are pretty retarded, in a Ted Nugent way. Just because they’re singing about “revolution” doesn’t mean they weren’t heavy rock bozos. That’s just my harsh opinion, of course, but I’m standing by it.
cdm, the way I’m seeing it, the number of necks on the guitar used by the guitarist should detract from the solos, which would result in a higher SIGN rating being more desirable than a lower SIGN.
I think a guy like Jimmy Page would do well enough in other statistical rock categories that he wouldn’t significantly hurt Zeppelin’s overall rating, but the Eagles would rightly see their SWLABRmetric ratings continue to drop thanks to Don Felder’s Double Guitar. Meanwhile, Rick Nielsen’s use of the five-necked guitar could prove to be a disaster for Cheap Trick when all the statistical categories are compiled.
I hope a similar stat can be generated for use of Chapman Sticks by bass players.
Mr.M,
I tend to agree and that’s why I mentioned the politics angle. Good point about Atlantic.
I played keyboards for Percy for about a decade so I can name many more songs and some were moderately successful but nothing like “When a Man”. That song was HUGE. It also inspired Procol Harem’s “Whiter Shade Of Pale” so it had some influence. His style was unique but nothing I would consider groundbreaking. He has delighted millions of people through the years but I guess that doesn’t count. He’s a sweetheart of a man and I’m glad for him but the only way he is worthy is if you consider some of the others that are in. Once going there I come full circle to my original comment that the HoF is meaningless. I’d say the same about Grammys.
Alexmagic, I see your point, but if you multiply the SIGN by the MSQ (Mach Shau Quotient), don’t you end up with essentially the same result? I’m no good at math but I think it breaks down like this:
(solos/number of necks) x MSQ + (Windmill Shares [VORDM/2])
Please check my math on this one.
Mod, I don’t see your point about the MC5.
Alexmagic,
What about keyboards? If I understand your metric Rick Wakeman would score lower that Richard Carpenter.
Very cool, gregg! Tomorrow you’ll learn why I also think it’s a very cool coincidence that “Whiter Shade of Pale” came up today! No joke.
Thinking of “When a Man…” and “Whiter Shade…” as a kid I was lukewarm on both of those songs. Then, when I learned of their connection, the rock nerd in me better tuned into each of those songs. These days I fully dig those songs. Both songs are good cases for the value of the RnR HoF as a museum. The songs, the specific performances, and the story behind them are worthy of a glass case.
As for my points on The MC5, cdm, the band sounds clunky to me compared with proto-punk contemporaries like The Stooges and The Velvet Underground. Strip away the revolutionary nonsense, give those guys some stability, and the MC5 would have been happy being a better version of Nugent, BTO, and other hard-rock/proto-metal boogie bands as the ’70s developed. Maybe I’m missing something, but for all the political and artistic veneer that I sense was applied to their routine, they seemed to lack a unique point of view and interesting rhythmic sense. The Stooges sound like a truly wild animal, whereas The MC5 sounds like a trained attack dog growling through its cage.
Alexmagic needs to get out of his mother’s basement and listen to some music!
I
Kid
Because
I
Love
Also, because I had a couple of beers with lunch.
I think we need to set replacement levels for the basic instrumentation.
How many notes above replacement is Rick Danko really on the bass, but further, is that mitigated by his range in difusing the poseurism of Robertson in The Band in a group setting, allowing them to “win”?
The most overlooked artist is missing from your poll – Marc Bolan/T. Rex!
So my initial feeling:
singers=pitchers
guitarists=outfielders
drums=1st basemen
keyboards=3rd basemen
bassists=middle infielders
composers=catchers
As a Townsman just said to me while we chat on the phone, it’s Tony Visconti who should be in.
gregg, as both you and my fellow budding SWLABRmetrician mockcarr suggest, keyboard players deserve (well, maybe) their own set of stats rather than be judged by those used for guitarists. While number of boards might be worth considering, I would also consider FroPROX (Proximity of Keyboard Player To Frontman), in which a Booker T or Geddy Lee would be rewarded, but Richard Carpenter would suffer. Carpenter’s FroPROX rating would suffer thanks to his traditional “behind, perpendicular and staring awkwardly towards” position in relation to Karen Carpenter.
cdm: I was trying to come up with a Mach Shau category earlier, so I’m glad to see MSQ arrive. Surely, MC5 supporters would cite their MSQ rating, a stat where Sam & Dave would likely lead the field.
Your math, specifically, is off, but there is a potential correlation in that a strong MSQ could offset a low SIGN. So if Nielsen was going to carry that five-neck guitar around, Robin Zander probably should have been doing backflips off his amps to account for it.
As you can see, this is exactly the kind of statistical analysis that Van Halen was using in the late ’70s/early ’80s by having Diamond Dave’s Mach Shau compensate for any multi-neck guitar Eddie might break out. When Sammy replaced DLR, VH’s MSQ dropped drastically, and when they resigned an aging Dave, he could no longer produce the Mach Shau numbers the band needed, and thus we see how SWLABRmetrics scientifically proves why the first version of Van Halen was the most successful.
I wouldn’t be surprised if further exploration of this topic were to uncover that Ted Templeman has secretly been the Billy Beane of Rock SWLABRmetrics all these years.
I’ve always enjoyed Percy’s version of “Dark End Of The Street.”
If you look at the list of past Grammy winners, you realize how bunk those things are. while I’d love to get one, they are pretty meaningless. I mean, Elvis Presley only won three and they were all for gospel recordings. The Grammys are notorious for getting it wrong most of the time.
TB
So is Berry Gordy like Branch Rickey?
That sounds about right, mockcarr. This begs the question: Who’s the Marvin Miller of rock ‘n roll?
Maybe Shel Talmy was the John McGraw of rock and roll.
I was thinking Allen Klein, but Miller was much more of a mensch.
I would posit Tom Petty as Curt Flood, but I’m still trying for a Miller comp.
I went through the same process of consideration and elimination, mockcarr. How about Dylan’s old manager, Albert Grossman?
As Alan Freed’s induction in the RnR HoF and the Hall’s location would attest, there’s no Shoeless Joe Jackson or Pete Rose to be found in rock ‘n roll.
The absence of KISS and The Monkees from the Hall of Fame would seem to suggest that Gene Simmons may be the Pete Rose of Rock and Davey Jones the Shoeless Joe. Mike Nesmith would, in turn, be the Buck Weaver of The Monkees.
Nesmith could still get in like Eddie Collins did off that team. Of course, he would have to be BETTER like that example.
Who’s the Barry Bonds on the horizon that will never get in despite their greatness?
Maybe KISS is the Barry Bonds of rock rather than the Shoeless Joe? If Mike Love had a solo career I’d suggest him.
Switching sports, Phil Spector’s gotta be the OJ Simpson of rock.
mockcarr says: “Who’s the Barry Bonds on the horizon that will never get in despite their greatness?”
I say: The Replacements, Husker Du, MC5, Buzzcocks, Big Star…
Dad gum, you guys are a hoot. I’m having a hard time keeping up.
Mockcarr, I’m new hear and I notice you even have an option named after you but with all due respect I think you have it wrong with the pitchers and catchers. Swapping them makes more sense.
Composers pitch songs and singers catch all the chicks.
I equated Kiss and Pete Rose way upthread but following this discussion maybe Gene is more of a Roger Clemens character – great numbers but an unapologetic a-hole.
OJ Simpson = Phil Spector is right on.
Barry Bonds will probably make it someday. Bono?
Y’know, Mr. Mod, one of your posts way up there made me think that the HOF part of the whole thing is just wrong. Every year they should induct singles, albums and one artist. That would be cool. The shows for the inductions could have the same dull people every year, or they could be forced to admit that there are a LOT of people that made that one truly great record. Maybe they couldn’t keep it up, but seeing a copy of that 45 (with sleeve), or the LP tastefully displayed would really be cool.
Plus, you’d end the argument about The Sex Pistols. That whole “They only had one album” argument goes out the window when you can toss in just that one album. That album changed everything for a lot of us, but did we all fall in love with The Sex Pistols?
Keeping in mind that I completely agree with the “ah, who gives a crap” portion of the thread title, I was just talking out my ass with those position assignments, and my idea was based on how those positions are represented in the baseball HOF, and that pitchers get the “suggestions” for what they pitch from the catchers similar in the way many songs are composed and then either given words, melodies, or different interpretations by the singer who definitely gets the glory much in the same way pitchers are given credit for “wins” regardless of how well they pitched. Also, it’s a bad pun regarding perfect pitch in my head, that I didn’t subject anyone to, at least until now.
Not that I really disagree with you.
I kind of like the 2000 Man’s idea of inducting albums and singles, rather than artists. And, since you’d have the benefit of time to assess a work, you wouldn’t end up like the Grammy awards. To me, singles really capture the essence of rock and roll–I firmly believe that almost every band that makes it as far as “putting it on wax” (thank you Beastie Boys) has one good song, and sometimes even a great one.