Jul 112007
Did Avril Lavigne rip off the chorus to her smash hit “Girlfriend” from obscuro New Jersey ’80s pop-rockers The Rubinoos? You be the judge!
Here’s Avril:
And the Rubinoos:
BREAKING EVIDENCE!?!?
And here are the choruses of both songs played back-to-back (courtesy of Saturnismine).
(A nod of the bewigged head to the Wall Street Journal for directing the world’s attention to this Gordian knot of legal intrigue.)
Meanwhile, Mr. Mod asks:
While we’re contemplating this important legal case, what suit would you bring to court on behalf of an artist whose song you suspect was ripped off?
yeah, it’s a ripoff…
and can we dispense with the nonsense that the rubinoos, in turn, “ripped off”, “get offa my cloud”?
they may have been inspired by the HEY (hey) YOU (you) part, but they assimilated / reinvented it, and turned it into something that never raised mick’s or keef’s eyebrows. and once the word “you” is uttered, both songs go in different directions.
avril’s song, on the other hand, doesn’t change the chorus one iota, with the exception of the words.
the comparison of the three is actually a great demonstration in the differences between assimilation and reinvention on the one hand (stones / rubinoos) and appropriation and imitation on the other (rubinoos / avril).
i think what it makes clear is that avril doesn’t really write her own tunes, and that there’s probably a team of dope blowing ghost writers who crank this shit out (i always marveled at how a song with so many changes and complex rhythmic syncopations like “complicated” could be written by a teenager with attention deficit, who can’t concentrate long enough to finish a sentence). in the case of “girlfriend”, one of avril’s writers was looking for an edge, cheated, and got caught.
i’m jetlagged, tired, and off to the dentist.
art
Hey, moddie — that vuh-deo can’t be embedded. You may have to post the link, or find another one without the problem.
Sorry —
HVB
I don’t think Lavigne ripped off the Rubinoos song in any way. Big deal: “hey, hey, you, you…boyfriend/girlfriend.” Beside the notes and rhythm on the heys and yous, do the songs have anything in common? I think not.
I can’t believe people are using this as an opportunity to beat up on that sweet, unassuming girl! She doesn’t give you enough ammunition through her own original works?
I will say, her “Boyfriend” hit song is about the catchiest piece of evil crap I’ve heard in some time. There’s much I can’t stand about the song, but it’s much better than something like, say, that Rubinoos song.
Thanks, Hrrundi. Since corrected with a superior video, I think you’ll agree.
nobody’s disputing the rest of each tune. it’s the hooks (i.e. the money makers) of each song that have the rubinoos’ panties in a bunch.
and whether or not one song is good and the other is stinky isn’t the point, either.
don’t think too hard about this.
just play the hooks back to back. i think they’re so close that the burden of proof falls to the people who think it’s not a ripoff, not the other way around.
isn’t there also some nasty disney-related backstory about this song being known to the lavigne camp during the making of her last album, too?
sleep awaits…love, toothy mcnovacaine.
I don’t know what you’re listening to – or what I’m listening to. I do not hear many similarities, and beside, if all there is is a similarity on those 4 notes on a bubblegum chorus, what can we expect?
i’m not sure what you mean by “what can we expect?” do you mean that the similarities of the hooks in both songs is inevitable?
as for what i’m listening to, it’s the “hey…you…” parts. the hooks. not the rest of either song.
if i had written the rubinoos song, I’d want an investigation after hearing avril’s hook. especially if there’s this disney connection….what are the details of that? it seemed like pretty damning evidence, damning enough to prompt a cynic like “great 48” to declare that the check would be cut.
check your email for a special treat in regards to this sticky problem!
i think we’ve both overstated our cases just a bit after conducting the little experiment i’ve emailed you.
cranky, overtired, unable to sleep….
OK, pince nez time and frankly, I can’t believe I’m the first person to point this out. The Rubinoos are from California, not New Jersey!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rubinoos
Just got the file, Saturnismine. Thanks. I’ll take a listen and see what we can do with it tonight.
Townsman saturnismine wrote:
I agree with every word of this. I couldn’t have put it better myself. After listening to both songs twice (I found a full-length mp3 of the Rubinoos song; great track), I have to conclude that the Avril song is a total rip-off, at least in its chorus, and the most plausible explanation is the one the great48 offered a few days ago regarding one of its writer working on a cover of that Rubinoos tune for a Radio Disney act.
I also have to say that neither song sounds anything like “Get Off My Cloud” and if anyone thinks so, they’re smoking crack. What an awful defense for Avril’s lawyers to use.
Oh and I thought that it was common knowledge that The Matrix and whoever her new handlers/producers are now write all her songs. I think it’s obvious that she’s just a puppet regardless.
I also agree with Mr. Moderator about the Avril song being an evil yet catchy piece of crap. I’ll never understand how you think it’s better than the Rubinoos song, but that’s just me.
Breaking evidence in this case has been submitted by Townsman Saturnismine. I believe it requires some form of Quicktime and/or iTunes to hear it. You kids have all the cool software, I’m sure.
The Rubinoos obviously based the “Hey, hey, you, you” part on the Stones, no doubt. It’s even got a little imitation of the Jagger sneer in the voice. The Lavigne version sounds as if she’s completely oblivious to the Stones reference, almost as if it had been ripped off from an unknown group like the Rubinoos rather than sung as an homage to a well known predecessor. I ain’t defending the Rubinoos song as better, but I’m convinced that Avril’s tune is a rip. I’m generally not a stickler for this type of thing. For example, I’ve always given Harrison a pass on the My sweet Lord/He’s So Fine case because I always felt that that was a worthwhile rewrite because it took a wholesale “teen love” tune and reconceptualized it as an ode to the creator. He’s so fine, indeed!!! But this rip-off seems totally crass. Just borrowing some obscure good ideas to fill up a pastiche hit. Mr. Mod, you’re wrong on this.
Even if Avril’s song writers did rip off those notes, which wouldn’t surprise me, I’m opposed to the idea of law suits regarding snippets of songs. Remember the number of lawsuits regarding sampling in the early days of rap? The difference here, I suppose, is that the rip-off is not being acknowledged in the tune. But if can people copyright not just songs, but moments of songs, a whole can of worms gets opened. How many notes that sound similar in a row constitutes copyright infringement? Actually I bet there is a legal answer to this question. In academic books on literature, for instance, you can quote up to 11 lines of a poem without receiving permission from the author, but if you quote a 12th, you have to pay licensing fees or you’re potentially in trouble.
Petrarch thought about this in the 14th century:
he who imitates must have a care that what he writes be similar, not identical (with his model), and that the similarity should not be of the kind that obtains between a portrait and a sitter, where the artist earns the more praise the greaer the likeness, but rather of the kind that obtains between a son and his father. Here, though there may often be a great difference between their individual features, a certain shadow and, as our painters call it “air” perciptible above all in the face and eyes produces that similarity that reminds us of the father as soon as we see the son, even though if the matter were put to measure ment, all parts would be found to be different; some hidden quality there has this power. So too should we take care that when one thing is like, many should be unlike, and that what is like SHOULD BE SO HIDDEN AS TO BE GRASPED ONLY BY THE MIND’S SILENT ENQUIRY, INTELLIGIBLE RATHER THAN DESCRIBABLE. We should therefore make use of another man’s inner quality and tone, but avoid his words for the one kind of similarity is hidden and the other produces; the one creates poets, the other apes.”
WHAT SATURN SAID!
Mark, I generally agree with your position regarding the overly restrictive current concept of what constitutes theft of “intellectual property”. For example, I love several songs that cop Sympathy for the Devil wholesale, down to the ooo-ooos. But all of them are reflecting back on that song in some meaningful way. The reference is intended. The obscurity of the Rubinoos reference in the Lavigne song and it’s absolute lack of any spiritual trace of the Rubinoo’s more famous referent, add up to a thieved hook with no real artistic intent other than a desire to sell some records on someone else’s idea.
Sounds like excellent artistic advice. But he doesn’t suggest that poor artistic “aping” is a criminal offense.
Since I believe he still owns the rights to all the early Stones material, I wouldn’t be surprised if the odious Allen Klein swooped down and copywhacked both Avril and the Rubinoos, just like he did to the Verve (with even less justification).
Geo, I hear you. But the claim that a piece of music “has no real artistic intent” is a claim that makes sense in the world of music criticism but shouldn’t have any real legal force. I don’t think we should start letting lawyers decide what constitutes artistic merit.
Speaking of Allen Klein — one of my recent thrift store singles that’s “on the bubble” for inclusion in my next comp is ? & the Mysterians’ follow-up to “96 Tears” — something called “I Need Somebody” or something like that. I discovered through the InterWeb that, thanks to Allen Klein — there are *no* available collections of *any* actual period ? & the Mysterians material. So — do any of you want to hear this number? I kind of like it, in all its mindless garage-y repetitive glory. And it turns out, there are few places where one might hear it these days, thanks to AK and Co.
HVB
That was true up until about 2 years ago when Cameo-Parkway material was finally reissued. There was a 4 disc label comp, followed a short while later by some single disc artist comps, including collections by Bobby Rydell, Dee Dee Sharp, The Dovells, The Orlons, and ? & The Mysterians.
Geo wrote:
Hey man, I’ve already got right sickness. I’m immune to your new case.
Listen, the “hey…you” parts are the ONLY parts that are similar – and the songs talk about boyfriends/girlfriends, a real novel topic in teenybopper and bubblegum rock songs. The Avril song, if you’ve even got a half an ear, is structured along the lines of big beatt bubblegum rockers, like something The Ramones would do. In fact, they have their share of “hey” songs that are MUCH more similar to Avril’s song. Have you heard anything BUT the chorus from that Rubinoos song? It’s a major Power Pop Wuss song, like something from Epluribus’ old Chattaqua routine (sorry I don’t remember the particulars). I bet McSnyds has an original pressing of the Rubinoos song. Let’s just say the manufactured, mean-spirited Lavigne song has more balls than the Rubinoos song. Don’t you hear Joan Jett when you hear the Lavigne song? The Ramones? “Hey Mickey”? “I Want Candy”? That kind of stuff – tough bubblegum music, not imaginary breakup songs about girls the guy never had the nerve to even speak to. I know you’ve got ears, Geo. Listen.
Look, I don’t care if Avril Lvigne can’t spell “April” right or if she ripped off the Rubinoos. In the immortal words of Bill Murray, “It just doesn’t Matter!”
This does:
Oh, yes! Please! In all it’s monotonous glory. I will never, ever snap your thong again, I promise!
mod, from the outset…i repeat…FROM THE OUTSET, the only issue has been the hooks of each song. the rest of the issues you raise are immaterial. not even the rubinoos claim that avril ripped off their entire song.
but the lifting of a hook may be QUANTITATIVELY measured as one small part of the song. however, qualitatively, it is much more than that. as i said in my initial post on the yahoogroup list, it’s THE MONEYMAKER part of the song. therein lies the rub.
i stand by my assertion that, if i were the rubinoos, i’d want an investigation after having heard the avril song.
“Hook,” Saturn, singular. Actually, a half a stinking hook is all the songs have in common, and as others have said, the half hook in question is from the Stones, who stole it from who knows who. Listen to the lyrics around said hooks, Saturn. Totally different, so the songs don’t even express the same broad mood. Sheesh! If the Rubinoos win $1 from this, I’m suing all sorts of people, and they should sue me two times back.
well, this has degenerated into a one-sided discussion.
you’re not even responding to the points we’re making e.g. quantity isn’t the issue).
why even start a thread?
I knew someone who was convinced that Avril Lavigne was a made-up name and that her real name is April Levine or something similar. I think, however, that Avril is a relatively common French Canadian last name and the same goes for her last name (it certainly sounds like it). Can you confirm this, sally?
“Avril” is simply French for April. Not at all uncommon as a French-Canadian girl’s name.
Saturnismine, who’s crying the blues now? There’s nothing 1-sided in the discussion. We disagree – and you’re wrong:) – but other than that I think we’ve made a lot of progress. Honestly – and I say this to all of you who are making the point that Avril and her ghostwriters stole the “hook” from this song, let’s remove the following from the discussion:
OK, have you wiped these factors from your mind? Now listen to those songs back-to-back and tell me the hook is ripped off from the Rubinoos song any more than it is one of a few Ramones songs or “Get Off My Cloud”.
I acknowledge, Saturnismine, that the “heys” and “yous” share similar notes and rhythms. I just think that given the sort of hooks employed in those choruses, the notes and rhythms used are inevitable. It’s like the ’70s Los Angeles Rams were bound to run a lot of power sweeps with Lawrence McCutcheon and the rest of that stable of big, mobile backs they employed. I KNOW we’re in agreement on how cool those Rams RBs were.
I can confirm this, also common – my middle name Renee (f), Rene (m), I met a million guys named “Guy” and “Michel” when I was living there, also popular; Alex and Stephan… oh, les quebecois! Zut!
oh, so now that i’ve called you on your bullshit you respond this rational, mellow tone? gimme a break.
the rams rb’s were underused. i know it, pat haden and chuck knox know it, even ray frikkin’ malavasi knows it. and now you do, too.
but at least now we’re talkin’. can’t believe i had to resort to that to get you to stop repeating your initial post without acknowledging some of the key points in all this.
and quit accusing me of jealousy of avril…etc.. complete nonsense (and also immaterial, although it makes for a good commercial break). along the same lines, since we’re now in the business of playing holier than thou, you’ll have to put aside whatever disdain you have for the rubinoos song (which is palpable) in order to get this right.
as i said in the email to you, i think we both overstated it initially. it’s not a lock that the avril camp ripped the rubinoos off. but it sure smells like it to me. and like geo, i’m not one of those people who thinks every instance of sound-alike is a ripoff.
do you think that “start!” is a “ripoff’ of taxman, or a great re-use of a great riff? it’s a complex problem, which is why i posted the petrarch quote.
is his distinction satisfactory? one could use parts of his text to argue either side effectively. clearly, he didn’t have it completely worked out either.
so with all due respect, and by the same token, for you to say that the lavigne song doesn’t sound like it rips off the rubinoos song “in any way” is totally crocked. sorry to be so blunt.
clearly, the similarities need to be questioned. so i’m glad that you’ve decided to stop being all “talk to the hand” about this. that high horse of yours…his back is tired.
so you DO suggest that you think the similarities between “the notes and rhythms used are inevitable”. thanks for finally answering that question.
look, anything’s possible.
i just think it’s MUCH likelier that avril’s writers built a song around the first part of the rubinoo’s chorus rather than this being a coincidence brought on by “the sort of hook” they were writing.
as for the stones, please refer to my first post, which i’ll elaborate on a bit more: the rubinoos took the “Hey (hey) You (you)” device in the stones song and put it in an entirely different context, to express an entirely different emotion, and with a totally different feel. i suspect that this is why it never raised an eyebrow.
they committed a much subtler form of REusage than what avril’s writer’s did with the rubinoos hook: they just USED it. they’re chewing the same flavor of bubblegum. not only do the songs express similar emotions in just about the same way, the songs are even about the same thing.
let’s break down the hook of each song, from “hey” to “friend”:
-“wanna be” and “boy” have been substituted with “don’t like” and “girl”.
– the melodic patterns go up on the same syllable (“boy” in the rubinoos song and “girl” in avril’s).
-aside from the words “wanna” and “don’t”, both hooks have the same number of syllables sung in the same pattern over the same time signature.
to my ears, that key phrase in both songs, the money maker phrase, hasn’t been subjected to much artistry at all by the avril people.
it sounds so much the same to me, that i think the burden of proof should be on them. they have ot prove they didn’t artlessly pilfer the hook.
in addition to all this, again, the disney piece is also rather damning, isn’t it?
Geezus, Saturnismine — and I thought *I* had too much time on my hands! Like the man said: SHEESH!
HVB
Hey Slade,
Throw on Outside Chance by the Turtles.
Is this the template for a number of Nixon’s Head tunes? No jokin’. It hit me like a ton of bricks when I heard it last night while doing some continuing Byrds research.
Berlyant, I have to say it feels good to know I’m not the only one so cynical about major celebrities. I can just see an agent or handler telling her that since she’s from Canada, people in the states will eat up a French spelling, and (ahem) “Voila!” Avril Levigne, exotic artist, is foisted upon Teen USA. I’m looking forward to all the nieces and nephew’s friends being named Avril, though. Brittany kind of needs a rest, at least here in the Cleveland suburbs.
Most of all, I really hope hrrundi will post that ? song. I’d love to hear that.
wow, fritz, you’re right. i had no idea that post was so long. truth be told, i’m writing the chapter of my dissertation that addresses my artist’s assimilation of ancient roman motifs in his (renaissance art). so i’ve been thinking about that thin, blurry line between inspiration and borrowing alot. the typos and the meandering logic tell the tale: it took as long to craft that post as it did to type it.
sanity is in the rear view mirror….
Saturnismine asked:
I think the “Taxman” bassline is a perfectly acceptable stock bass part that had nothing to do with “ripoff,” just as I think the standard Chuck Berry guitar intro lick is in the public domain of song arranging.
Geo, “Outside Chance” was never a conscious template for our music, but I always identified with the way The Turtles’ songs were constructed, the energy and fun they brought to their material, and the way they (badly) filled out their paisley shirts and trousers. Good call!