(Make sure you skip ahead to 3:15 for the key bit of dialog.)
In a recent conversation, I blurted out something in a very matter-of-fact way — the way that usually sets me up for a rhetorical pin-fall from somebody who thinks more than me before they open their yap. This time, however, everybody involved in the chat nodded their head in agreement. What I said was:
“The most totally rock and roll movie star ever? Bruce Lee.”
There was no disagreement during that conversation, and there should be none now. Bruce had swagger, balls, an intelligent, improvisational perspective on ass-kickery, wore cool shades, racing stripes, and was just generally all that.
Hand over the belt!
HVB
p.s.: Bruce Lee was called to mind as I watched an incredibly awful Matt Helm movie last night. The credits listed Bruce Lee as “Karate Consultant.” As I watched the movie, Dean Martin’s lumpy ineptitude at the business of chops and kicks made it clear Bruce couldn’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Every now and then, though, an obvious stunt-Karate dude made an appearance, and that dude could kick some ass! Using the marvel of digital freeze-framery, I slowed the film down to the point where this guy could be identified. Sure enough: it was Bruce Lee in a leisure suit with a curly wig on!
You have set the bar high, Hrrundi, although your idea of a rockin’ movie star may not have a wide enough base to withstand some of the challengers who are currently in training. One obvious contender has already down his raw eggs: Robert Mitchum. I’m not sure if he has all it takes to knock out Lee, but I bet he’s got more soul and would have had more appeal to dope-smokin’ deep thinkers.
Come ON, Mod! You can’t tell me Mitchum has more dope-smokin’ cred than Lee! I hope you don’t mind if we move our mannn… so the two of us will have more room to groooove…
Let he who has ever had dope-smokin’ cred cast the first seeds (and stems) of doubt!
Jack Nicholson has entered the ring.
Ooh, Nicholson; now *there’s* a contender. Except he didn’t die young, and now he makes turdular movies for old geezers.
YOU, of all people, are going to give Lee extra credit for dying young? What next, a Thrifty Music edition on Big Brother and the Holding Company? For that reason alone Nicholson now sports the belt!
James Dean comes roaring down the aisle in his motorcycle, slides under the ropes in his slick leather jacket, steals the belt, then leaves the arena to be alone with his demons
William Holden’s bullet-ridden body jumps out of the screen during a showing to The Wild Bunch to pry the belt from Dean’s angst-ridden, Method-y hands.
Holden’s a great would-be rocker, but rockin’s not all about kickin’ ass. I’m going to throw a wildcard into the mix, a much more cerebral, quixotic actor to represent the finest of high-brow British Invasion rock (and the guy could party with the best of them): Peter Sellers.
I’m having trouble thinking of a contender for Bruce, but I’m not submitting yet.
In the meantime, this post brings a new question to mind: what if Bruce Lee had been granted entry into The Rat Pack? My mind is reeling at the seismic shift this would have made in both the acting and music industries of the time.
Keep in mind, of course, that Sinatra is often credited with having one of the first martial arts fights in a US film (The Manchurian Candidate) and that Sammy Davis Jr., like Bruce, guest starred on Batman. It could have happened!
Taking Mr. Mod’s statement that rockin’ isn’t always about kickin’ ass, I would like to put the Three Stooges into the ring for this competition. To me, they were the Ramones of comedy & their many failed attempts to deal w/the real world are definitely punk rock at least. Curly Howard had that idiot savant appeal that Joey & Dee Dee had while Moe Howard was the prototype for Johnny, as well as the Beatles haircut.
James Dean was far too precious to rock.
Peter Sellers crossed my mind, but he’s a bit old. Shouldn’t a rocking movie star be at least close to the age of the real rockers?
There’s always Elvis Presley, who was both a rocker and a movie star.
I don’t think actual age should be a consideration. I’ve been considering throwing Humphrey Bogart into the ring. I see him as the fulfillment of a cross between the aspirations of Lou Reed and Keith Richards.
I just think that movie stars like Bogart and Mitchum have a different sensibility that is very pre-rock. I’m thinking more Oliver Reed and Terence Stamp on the British side, or maybe Malcolm Macdowell, and Robert DeNiro and Warren Beatty on the American side.
I don’t get Bruce Lee, and I can’t imagine sitting through an entire movie of his, but at least he’s the right generation.
Steve McQueen. He inspired Sheryl Crowe to ride a motorcycle (I don’t know why she stands up on it, though) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=233o3DL1DwE
He also inspired Mick Jagger to write one of my favorite lines, and when Atlantic tried to get them to change the lyrics to Starfucker, they told the Stones “Steve McQueen will sue you.” So the Stones sent a copy over to Steve, and he thought the line in question, “Ali McGraw got mad at you, for giving head to Steve McQeen” was funny and gave his blessing.
Steve McQueen totally rocks!
BigSteve,
Mitchum doesn’t seem pre-rock to me. I know he was, but he’s one of those older film stars who doesn’t feel purely of his time. Plus, he’s got that intangible bad-ass quality that, I have to say, rocks.
I don’t think Warren Beatty rocks at all, except maybe in Bonnie and Clyde.
I’ll give you Stamp and especially Malcolm McDowell, who’s probably as responsible for British punk as any musician.
I like the Oliver Reed suggestion, and the Moe Howard/Johnny Ramone comparison is great.
How about this: Brilliant young career; incredibly talented pain-in-the-ass, especially in a recording studio; slept around; problems with creative control; left his country to live in exile; got fat and embarrassed himself at the end; more celebrated after he died; post-death has seen the rights to his works tied up with his family and there have been plenty of bootlegs and remixes of his unfinished material out there. Orson Welles was kind of like every rock legend combined into one guy.
What about Brando, he’s a great and terrible actor, dangerous yet effete, physical but with depth, he even sang and danced some. Changed movie acting as rock was changing pop music. Like any rock star, he wouldn’t even memorize his own part.
Hell, he kissed Larry King! That’s still more shocking than anything Mick or Madonna have done.
Peter Sellers has a rock star vibe? ha ha ha ha ha ha! Gimme a break.
In my mind, the only one that comes close to qualifying is Jack Nicholson. And that includes HVB’s starter cinema rock star, Bruce Lee.
Dennis Hopper always seemed to be about the same thing as a rock star to me. In addition to sporting all the traditional “walk on the wild side” trappings, he’s sort of out of it, like Ozzy, and has an ability to “rise from the ashes,” so to speak, by mounting the occasional comeback.
But he may not have the juice to unseat Jack.
I hold that Sellers could have given Syd Barrett a run for his money while partying with the glee of a member of The Who.
Jimmy Cagney, mofos. Who’s gonna take the belt from that guy and live to tell about it?
Yes, partying and insanity are certainly important categories in the overall evaluation of rock star ish ness.
But doesn’t the overall persona said actor puts forth count for anything? Even though Sellers associated with rock stars, i’ve never equated him with them.
In answer to the question first posed by HVB, there are many others I’d name (some of whom already grace this page). And after naming them, I’d continue to rack my brain for others before Peter Sellers would come to mind. And upon finally thinking of him, I’d discard him immediately.
And YES, I saw the biopic starring Jeffrey Rush.
Sellers is an answer that may hold up to analysis, but I stand by my visceral reaction.
I await RTH comment on my submission of Hopper, and will abide by the consensus in these hallowed halls.
But one further thing: what about the ladies?
How about 19th century French stage diva, Sarah Bernhardt? She was a sex symbol before there really were any. She also lied about her place of origin, claiming to have run away from her home in Iowa. She aspired to the same global cultural dominance as Madonna, dabbling in the visual arts, poetry, recording, publishing, and even taking her act on tour, as far as Cuba.
I think it’s weird that so many people are picking tough guy actors as more “rockin'” than others. In fact rockers are about as tough as … um actors playing tough guys. I nominated Warren Beatty for the nacissistic pretty boy ‘I can and will have sex with any woman I want’ side of rock stardom.
I hear you, BigSteve. Beatty would have given Jackson Browne a run for his money.
I’m gonna have to jump ahead a little bit here and throw out River Phoenix. You got your dying young, your party-hardy, your sexy back, your sophomore slump, your sensitive period pieces, your hit plays, your serious side, your working with the greats. I think the only thing missing is a Yoko Angle.
Yes, but Steve, this point suggests that actors pretending to be tough are in fact the perfect comparison.
Just being tough ain’t enough. Otherwise, John Wayne would rock. Just being a p*ssy-magnet ain’t enough, or Warren Beatty would rock (he does not). Just having a put-up-or-shut-up ‘tude ain’t enough. That’s why Nicholson goes UP and over the top rope. Just bein’ a mad style-o-phile ain’t enough — if it were, James Dean would rock, or George Clooney fer chrissake. Just being clever won’t cut it; that’s why Sellers was laughed out of the ring when he appeared in those ridiculous, over-one-shoulder, Union Jack spandex tights. Just being edgy ain’t enough — just ask Hopper, who was tossed over the top rope the moment he stumbled into the ring stinking of bongwater and burnt hair. You gotta have it *all*, people — and that’s why Bruce Lee (though he momentarily struggled with Jimmy Cagney, who does in fact rock) reigns supreme.
Hand over that belt!
ha. all we’re doing is using actors to talk about what we think “rockin'” means.
“edgy… tossed over the top rope the moment he stumbled into the ring stinking of bongwater and burnt hair.”
in my book, hvb, your description of hopper, pasted above for the convenience of all RTHers, and which you have used to argue *against* his rockingness, is the perfect description of exactly what would happen to a real rocker.
give me back my belt.
Does Bruce Lee always win or does he sometimes lose and come face to face with human weakness, the devil, and/or or his own failings? Winners-every-time definitely do not rock, unless the band is Triumph.
mwall: There are in fact a few Lee flix which follow the typical chop-socky plot line involving first failure, then redemption and eventual victory. You know, using drunken monkey crane style.
More importantly, Sat: geez, man, you don’t think rock personification is ever more than make-believe, do you? What we’re arguing here is which movie star best personifies the rock ideal. Otherwise, the winner of the Battle Royale would be Steven Seagal, or Bruce Willis, or Keanu Reeves, or some other movie star who actually does, you know, “rock.”
I’m not talking about initial loss, then redemption leading to victory. I’m talking about putting it all on the line and still losing. That’s Cagney strapped to a bed and dumped on his family’s doorstep dead, Bogart with no falcon and no girl, Brando who coulda been a contender. I’m not talking “Eye of the Tiger” here; I’m talking “My baby drove up in a brand new Cadillac.” If Lee never gets it in the gut for good, then he can’t be one of the greats.
I am still not seeing any answer that feels more constitutionally correct than Robert Mitchum. If the relevant moment from Thunder Road — you know, the bit where he flicks his cigarette into the pursuing car — is online, I shall post it, but c’mon, anyone who has seen it can tell you that’s the most rock and roll moment in any movie ever, if you agree — as I do — that rock and roll’s defining element is cool.
Ah, here we go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx-i3VEc_4c
don’t be disingenuous, hvb.
the point you’re making *now* — what we’re arguing here is which movie star best personifies the rock ideal — is the point that I was making, although I would take away the word “ideal,” which I don’t think has anything to do with rock. i think rock is about being flawed and not being ashamed to embody it. Bruce Lee is an ideal, for sure. But he’s pretty far from my idea of rock.
Hopper is probably living a pretty comfortable life by now. But I was talking about his persona, of course. Along with Mitchum and Nicholson, Hopper is about as close as you can get to a rock persona as has been mentioned, thus far.
Richard Pryor
Mwall, I hate when you use logic against. But in fact people are voting more for the roles the actors play than for the actors themselves.
Absolutely, Steve. And that’s because we don’t believe in the Sincerity Fallacy.
Still, as this conversation has gone on, it’s become clearer that it’s not the image of each of these actors needs further defining, but that we don’t agree on what characteristics we’re looking for. Cool my ass. It’s about soul. And Pryor, for instance, though he’s actually a great choice, I see more as a 1971 sleazy but great funk song.
It’s more complex than just actors vs. the roles the play.
Actors craft personae that overlap with their *real* identities and the identities they take on in films.
Noone’s talking about specific movie roles. We’re only talking about their general public identities, which, as I say, overlap or accrue from the roles they’ve played, but also the parts of their private lives they (or their publicity firms, or people interested in invading their privacy and exposing it to the public) let us know about.
Then, the question, as I understand it, is: which actors are the “most rockin?” to use HVB’s phrase.
It certainly aint Bruce Lee. Kung Fu has only come into contact with rock on the silliest of levels.
In other threads over the years HVB himself argues that “rock” is about having fun, screwing up, thumbing one’s nose at authority.
It’s certainly not about athletic prowess (especially of the disciplined variety required by the martial arts), even according to the H, the V, and the B.
I’d like the suggestion of Richard Pryor if he didn’t seem so skittish and scared all the time. That’s not very rockin’.
C’mon, man, that was his son!
Pryor definitely had vulnerability, but certainly in those concert films he made he stalks the stage like he owns it, like a true rock star does.
And of course I was mainly trying to suggest that the winner of this battle royale need not be white. Or beige.
C’mon, BigSteve — say it! Yaller!
steve: it need not be male, either.
hvb: “yaller” : ) nice!
Just my way of saying that Bruce Lee was not full-blooded Chinese.
I agree that testicles are not necessarily a requirement, but someone’s going to have to do better than Sarah Bernhardt. Vanessa Redgrave? Julie Christie?
come on, man…. Sarah rocked!!!
But i hear ya…we can do better.
Meanwhile, I’m still thinkin….
I’m proud to konw that Mitchum – MY FIRST SUGGESTION – has had the belt he so obviously deserved handed back to him by my good friend, The Great 48. I knew that Sellers was a longshot, but your outright rejection of him says more about him – especially about you, Saturnismine – than it does his would-be rocker cred.
mod, there’s nothing obvious about Mitchum’s hold on the belt, but I do like the suggestion.
My rejection of Peter Sellers says so much about me because I said it my self. I’ve got nothing to hide.
I’m well aware of all the reasons for his “would be rocker cred.” But if I have to make one choice, he’s nowhere near the top of my list.
What do you think this says about me?
What I think it means about you, Sat, is not important; it’s what The People think it means about you that counts – and they’re all in my rearview mirror!
You know what, Sellers isn’t rockin’ enough. In my cage match of English comedic aesthetes I see Alec Guiness gently crawling through the ropes to politely ask Sellers for the belt!
It may help to look at things a different way:
Sellers — Kinks
Hopper — Country Joe & the Fish
Mitchum — Jerry Lee Lewis
Beatty — The Strokes
Cagney — Stones
Guinness — Lonnie Donnegan
Lee — Van Fucking Halen
I submit a drunk Mickey Rourke for consideration. He subscribes to the Keef school of Rock
Where does ’70s Burt Reynolds fit into all of this? Eventually, he turned into the KISS of actors, of course…
Is Nick Nolte the Tom Waits of actors? Or is Tom Waits the Tom Waits of actors? I would submit that Tom Waits the actor is more rockin’ than Tom Waits the musician.
Was Reynolds the Grand Funk Railroad of actors?
I think Nolte is the Waits of rock, whereas Waits, as you suggest Alexmagic, is the Waits of actors.
Paul Newman is too cool for this, but Cool Hand Luke certainly rocked.
I can’t believe Charles “Mandom” Bronson has not entered the ring and incapacitated everyone with his musky armor.
Warren Oates in Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia. Loser rock at its finest.
One thing this Battle Royale has taught me is that actors rock nowhere near as hard as rockers.
I definitely contest the idea that “most rocking” and “coolest” are equivalent. to rock, you can’t just sit back and flick ashes out windows… you’ve got to sweat hard and earn it.
Enter the Dragon was on last night, which made me think of this post. How does John Saxon rank among would-be rockers?
Oh, MAN! You just cracked the code! The world’s most rockin movie star is in fact THREE movie stars — John Saxon, Bruce Lee, and Jim Kelly! Add those guys up, and you cover ALL the bases needed to obliterate the competition. A surprise winner in the Battle Royale: a THREE-MAN TAG TEAM!
Would John Saxon in Enter the Dragon kind of be like Jerry Martini in The Family Stone?
Saxon feels like he’d fall into that cool-rockin’ confusion area that people keep running into.
Perhaps we can settle this with a specific question: who was the most rockin’ cast member in The Magnificent Seven, a movie stacked with cool actors? I would personally say that Bronson was the coolest, but was not, in fact, the most rockin’. In answering this question, some of us may be able to define rockin’ and the ways in which it differs from simply being cool.