Aug 162010
To every peckerhead up here who refuses to take off the Peter Fonda sunglasses and motorcycle jacket, I want to know right here and now what your beef is with Herman’s Hermits. And if you do have a problem, please provide a well thought out reason for your disliking. And I don’t wanna hear any of that Andy “my record collection consists of 8 greatest hits LPs, the centerpiece of which is that Stones thing that’s shaped like an octagon” Rosenau crap like “Yeah, and Freddie and the Dreamers really kick it out too” drivel.
Know you’re dealing with someone who knows the Hermits catalog very well.
Let’s go. I’m ready for it.
Sincerely,
E. Pluribus
I’m posting this on behalf of Townsman cdm:
1. They’re just a poor man’s Dave Clark Five
2. Peter Noone is a bit too “toothy”
3. Henry the 8th blows.
I suspect that this last comment is playing right into your hands, and I’m also guessing that there is some Throwing the Baby Out With the Bathwater argument about how this is akin to ignoring Chuck Berry’s catalog because of his Ding A Ling, but still, it really, REALLY blows.
Aside from you, who’s heard more than a handful of songs from them? I like what I’ve heard well enough but why do they warrant a closer look than, say, Tommy James, or the Rascals or the DC5?
The burden of proof is on you.
Comment from: cdm [Member]
1. They’re just a poor man’s Dave Clark Five
2. Peter Noone is a bit too “toothy”
3. Henry the 8th blows.
I suspect that this last comment is playing right into your hands, and I’m also guessing that there is some Throwing the Baby Out With the Bathwater argument about how this is akin to ignoring Chuck Berry’s catalog because of his Ding A Ling, but still, it really, REALLY blows.
Aside from you, who’s heard more than a handful of songs from them? I like what I’ve heard well enough but why do they warrant a closer look than, say, Tommy James, or the Rascals or the DC5?
The burden of proof is on you.
08/16/10 @ 13:46
Hi CDM,
As far as your initial points are concerned, the first is way off (apples and oranges), the second is an easy poke (something I expected from someone limited like a Rosenau but certainly not you), and the third is fair enough although I find it to be an enjoyable piece of fluff, which Mickie Most and the band most probably thought as well when it was originally released. They all had a laugh. What’s wrong with that?
Throwing out the Chuck Berry catalog over “Ding a Ling”? C’mon.
You like what you’ve heard well enough? Maybe it’s just me, but when I like something I check out more of it. As far as hits are concerned, Herman’s Hermits had more than Tommy James, The Rascals, and DC5. The groups that had more hits (the Hollies are another example) usually had more buried gems on their LPs.
My point is this, if you’re got time to piss away looking for decent music, Herman’s Hermits is certainly a valid choice, way more valid than 90 percent of the garbage that’s commented upon up here and celebrated for talent that’s just not there.
Sincerely,
E. Pluribus
Plurbs: I’m answering in the probably vain expectation that you’ll respond with your reasons why Herman’s Hermits *don’t* suck. Know that if you’ve got mp3s to share to help make your case, you can e-mail ’em to my private e-mail account, and I’ll put ’em up for all to savor.
Now, on to my beefs with this band — which, admittedly, I’ve not heard every late-period-psych-lite-Noone-poses-for-the-cover-in-Mcguinn-granny-glasses-with-sitar tracks.
1. Music made for 9 year-old girls
2. Stupid novelty songs
3. I could honestly live out the rest of my days never hearing another track by Herman’s Hermits and not feel cheated. Hell, there’s even a Frank Zappa song I’d like to hear at least once more before I die.
4. Overly cutesy behavior from lead singer
That’s what I’ve got right off the bat. Prove me wrong.
HVB
Hey Hrundi,
Know what I love most about you? You can speak 9 languages, take a computer apart, rebuild it, and still hand in a giant zero when the opportunity is there to make an absolute ass out of me.
Point in case, the picture of Noone you’ve posted. Honestly, that’s all the better you can do? Didn’t it occur to you to at least post a shot where Noone’s teeth weren’t so prevalent, just to keep things interesting? There’s plenty of decent shots of the band playing and rehearsing. Again, in the immortal words of another who fails to interest you, Bob Dylan, “nothing was delivered”. And for that matter, why should anything you say be considered at all? All this poop is coming from someone who doesn’t understand why Bob Dylan is a force to be reckoned with.
Music made for 9 year old girls? During that erea what rock and roll act wasn’t making music for 9 year old girls, in some way or another?
As far as point 3 is concerned, let’s just file that one under “Peter Fonda sunglasses and Fonzie motorcycle jacket”. And to think that you of all people are trying to get away with that! This from the man who STILL wears a Speidel like wrist bracelet and is foolish enough to think it will get him points with someone who shouldn’t be placed in a mental insitution.
Reason 4 was his attempt at showmanship. The fact of the matter is that it did nothing for me, but it did a lot for the band who took many walks to the bank.
PLEASE SMOKE SOME POT, LOTS OF IT, FOR YOUR SAKE AND THOSE WHO COME IN CONTACT WITH YOU.
Send somebody in with some real pop brains, like your buddy mockcarr.
E. Pluribus
I’m not suggesting we throw out Chuck’s catalog because of My Ding A Ling. To the contrary, I recognize that I might be unfairly judging the Hermits based on their hit novelty song. But the only other things I know by them are:
I’m Into Something Good – Not bad, a nice pop trifle. I’m not damning it with faint praise, I like pop trifles.
Can’t You Feel My Heartbeat – Same as above
Mrs Brown You’ve Got A Lovely Daughter – Just this side of “meh”
‘Enery the 8th – If this unprecedented piece of shit gets stuck in my head as a result of this thread, you’ll be hearing from my attorneys.
There it is, four songs, none of which I like as much as anything I’ve heard by Tommy James, the DC5 and, purveyors of my favorite song of all time , the Rascals (Good Loving).
Time and money are tight, and you know as well as anyone that kids tend to hog up what little there is of either.
Among my cds and albums I have no:
Arther Alexander
Louvin Brothers
Ernest Tubb
Tommy James
And very little:
Salomon Burke
Ike and Tina
Rascals
Chuck Berry
I know these are apples and oranges but I only have so much money to spend at the fruit stand, so explain yourself: why should I spend more time with the Hermits?
Point of clarification: Is epg arguing that there’s great Hermit material outside of the greatest hits collections? If so, what and where is it?
I like the hits just fine, though Enery the 8th is not one of my favorites. But didn’t Peter Noone himself quit the band because he thought their material was too lightweight?
All I ask is that the band be given a fair shake, something I can expect from someone like you or mockcarr. By the way, I’ve given up on Rosenau. For years, I wanted to get a Righteous Brothers thang going on with him, but he wouldn’t play ball. I think you, me, and Charlie could get something together. I picked up the bass a few weeks ago and decided to learn some Bruce Thomas lines, just for fun. During a car ride, “Pump it Up” was cranked. My oldest daughter said, “That’s the best bass line I’ve ever heard. I’ll bet you five bucks you can’t figure it out.” To make a long story short, I took her money (I’ll take anyone’s money regardless of race, creed, color, age, relation, smell, etc.)and thoroughly enjoyed the exercise. He is by far, my favorite rock bassist. What I enjoy most about his playing is that he is somehow or another able to insult genres deemed appropriate for a Costello song by parodying the genre and adding extraneous notes having nothing to do with the genre to keep a sense of humor about the thing. Charlie Parker and Clint Gallup were similar masters, throwing in snippets of God only knows what (“Three Blind Mice”, etc.)
based on what was happening at a club or a session. Whatever.
I don’t know what it is that you do, but I’m happy to plunk away at the bass, if Charlie or you can be encouraged to pick up a guitar and sing.
Hrundi, can be called in to clap or do a few Bowie laughs at the beginning or end of a song, should either of you wnat to write and record.
Back to Herman’s Hermits. Like I stated previously, they had more hits and therefore have more hidden gems on their LPs. Say the word, and I’ll give you at least 20 songs that are worthy of a listen.
E. Pluribus
Big Steve,
I greatly appreciate the effort made at keeping this thing on a serious level, i.e “Noone’s teeth, if need be, could be used as pasteboards”. And that’s true by the way, but I’m actually trying to get something interesting out of all this.
The material is there. If you’d like more details, just say the word.
Hope all is well,
E. Pluribus
CDM,
I took another look at the list of holes in your CD collection. I still think you’re one of the greatest things since sliced bread, but no Chuck Berry? As I’ve stated previously, I feel for those who don’t get goosepimply as soon as something like “Carol” comes blasting out of Jensen car stereo speakers (that’s what I had in my International Scout during my high school days. They ruled!)
E. Pluribus
I’m not proud of that fact.
I have a well worn greatest hits album from high school that has about 12 songs or so, and I downloaded “It Wasn’t Me”, “Too Much Money Business” and “Nadine”, but I think that’s it.
Do me a favor, and do it now. Download “Carol” from iTunes and crank it. Really give it a good listen. Trust me, it just doesn’t get any better than that.
E. Pluribus
Can’t I just listen to it on the scratchy album that I have?
I know his music by the way (or at least the condensed, Great 28 version of it) but I never bothered to get any when I started buying cds. As a result, I have as many (or more) songs by Bullmoose Jackson in my iPod as I do by Chuck Berry.
Scratchy album is fine as long as it’s not a Mercury release. When Berry signed with Mercury in the mid sixties, he rerecorded his whole Chess catalog with about as much feeling as a 6th grader summons up when forced to learn the ins and outs of something like square dancing during gym class.
Scratchy album is also fine as long as it’s a Chess release, and it’s mono. When stereo became thee industry standard, Chess remastered the Berry catalog in something called “electronically enhanced stereo”. What that means is that one speaker cranks out a somewhat trebly mix of the original mono track, and the other speaker cranks out a somewhat muddy mix of the original mono track. In other words, it sucks beyond belief.
This is not nitpicking. This is making sure fresh ears hear what all the hoopla is about.
Sincerely,
E. Pluribus
Gergley, will you *please* stop shuckin’ and jivin’, and just tell us what scintillating Herman’s Hermits “deep trax” are out there in woefully neglected music land?
I’m seriously asking here.
HVB
The following are all worthy of a listen:
I’m Into Something Good, Show Me Girl, I Understand (Just How You Feel),I Know Why, Hold On, Got a Feeling, Leaning On a Lamp Post, All The Things I Do For You Baby, A Must to Avoid, Listen People, Can’t You Hear My Heartbeat, I Gotta Dream On, Dial My Number, Dandy, My Reservation’s Been Confirmed, The Story of My Life, There’s a Kind of Hush, Jezebel, No Milk Today, Just a Little Bit Better, etc.
Herman’s Hermits didn’t write a whole hell of a lot, but they had good ears for good songs. Those ears might actually have been owned by Mickie Most, their producer. And by the way, any Mickie Most produced track is worth a listen. The mother really knew how to capture sound and make it kick like a mack truck barrelling out of your speakers.
What pisses me off more than anything is most of the bozos around here who rattle off some pithy dismissal without doing the homework.
Do me a favor. Do some real fucking homework, and THEN bitch about that which you find laughable.
E. Pluribus
Well, but here’s the thing: Herman’s Hermits are most widely known from their cheeseball hits, which — and I have a high tolerance for cheese, my friend — even I find excessively cheesey. I mean: “Mrs. Brown, You’ve Got a Lovely Daughter”?! Come ON!
You’re the guy who taught me that most of the turd-sniffing that goes on in collectors’ music circles is a giant waste of time. You know what I’m talking about: the guys who convince themselves that the deep tracks from an otherwise laughable teenybopper band are EVEN BETTER than the hits we all know. You’d have to admit that’s almost always a fool’s errand. So I’m skeptical.
But I’ll head out to iTunes or someplace to sample what you’ve got on offer here — then I’ll get back to you. I got an open mind.
HVB
To further show you my heart’s in the right place, I’ve switched that smiling Noone picture out for something much more serious. I hope this new image meets with your approval.
HVB
It never ceases to amaze me at how much catching up you need to do. What in the name of God were you listening to during your formative years? Oh! I forgot ! Your holy trinity of pop: ZZ Top, ELO, and Prince!
My appreciation of Herman’s Hermits has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with “the collector thing”. This in not an exercise into the obscure. Herman’s Hermits sold millions and millions of records, 45s and LPs. Your average 60s teenager would most probably have been familiar with the album tracks. The LPs were extremely good sellers. Check out a Billboard album chart. Again, DO THE FUCKING HOMEWORK.
What’s really sad about all this is that your wasted youth allows you to dis Herman’s Hermits and encourages your head to remain up the ass of that Japanese Zero that Sammy and Mod keep sticking up in the corner of the web page every time I’m up on this thing for more than 5 minutes.
AGAIN, PLEASE SMOKE SOME POT, FOR YOUR OWN SAKE AND THE SAKE OF OTHERS WHO MAY COME INTO CONTACT WITH YOU.
E. Pluribus
I always give credit where credit is due. That was funny.
Sincerely,
E. Pluribus
Just another quick two cents about Mickie Most. Last weekend, I had a pretty good find, Terry Reid’s first LP.
I continued to feel great about the LP until I actually played it -two sides of solid dogshit without a single stud of corn to be found. And this was the guy who was supposed to front Led Zeppelin! Believe me, that pack of assholes made the right choice when they took on Plant. That said, the Terry Reid LP sounded like a truck barreling through my speakers? Why? You guessed it! Mickie Most was calling the shots once again!
Hey Moderator, now THAT would be an interview. As far as I’m concerned the man is an unheralded genius. I think I can speak for any 60s diehard that an indepth interview regarding Most’s life and recording techniques would be greatly appreciated.
Just something to think about,
E. Pluribus
E. Pluribus, or should I call you by your real name, which you asked me to prohibit anyone from using here: people other than you use “handles,” including the guy who usually goes by “andyr.” He probably doesn’t like seeing his full name in print, especially when it’s in regard to his extensive collection of greatest hits albums by ’60s and early ’70s bands!
That said, Peter Noone is the main problem with Herman’s Hermits. I like a few of their songs, but his Dick Van Dyke-worthy English accent and his Look are big-time bummers. Even as a dorky, young kid I knew the stench of Noone would not play well in my attempts to eventually don the Fonzie jacket (preferably the original blue windbreaker). As much as we laugh about the ridiculous efforts any of us have made to be “cool” someday, it is a worthy goal. Put it this way: Noone is a bit like that Simply Red guy is he were the main inspiration for The Monkees’ Davy Jones.
Okay, just listened to 30-second snippets of the tunes your recommended. Here’s my verdict: I *really* like “No Milk Today.” That song is a winner. The rest range from okay/not bad to pretty forgettable.
Look, I know this music means a lot to you. I cried a lonely tear the day you said you couldn’t get into the amazing wonderfulness that is the Capitol-era Four Freshmen — a group that means the world to me, for various reasons, including sentimental ones.
See, I didn’t have a charismatic older brother to leave me his battered Hermits greatest hits discs when I was wearing brown, waist-high dungarees and Keds. For me, the Hermits are barely okay, with one really bright spot in this “No Milk Today” number, for which I thank you.
Sorry I couldn’t be more enthusiastic,
HVB
If Mr. Mod can score an interview with Mickie Most, I’ll be really impressed and maybe a little weirded out too.
As I catch up on this thread, thanks for reminding me of that “Reservation” song. That’s a SOLID rock ‘n roll song! And I like most of the well-known hits; it’s just that I can’t get by Noone and his influence on Dick Van Dyke and Davy Jones. Like my feelings about bad girl garage rock and the WNBA, this is not an opinion that makes me a better person, only an honest one. Your longtime support of Herman’s Hermits ranks up there with my support for Roy Woods’ Boulders and The Undertones. We all need to play “My Bodyguard” to one of rock’s wimps.
This time I’m serious — Ronnie James Dio’s been taken down and replaced with something I, like Mod, can get behind. Solid, workmanlike rock and roll. No problem here.
Hey Moderator,
Just for the record, the “Noone” thing doesn’t bother me a bit. What was he, 17 or 18 when all that stuff was recorded? That alone gives him thumbs up in my book. I cut Emitt Rhodes a break for the exact same reasons. His stuff is pretty meaningless, but it’s sure as hell well done -what you would classify as “noble efforts”.
That said, I appreciate the fact that your man enough to provide a solid reason for your dislike of Noone.
And Hrundi, “No Milk Today” is probably the weakest track in my list of 20. You just don’t get it. Again, PLEASE SMOKE SOME POT FOR YOUR OWN’S SAKE AND THE SAKE OF OTHERS WHO MAY COME INTO CONTACT WITH YOU.
E. Pluribus
I think this whole anti-Herman’s Hermits sentiment is just a specific example of a general undercurrent which rankles me about RTH.
WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH POP TRIFLES?
People use the term “pop music” as if it is de facto a pejorative. Yeah, so, Herman’s Hermits was a pop band. I can’t say that I’m familiar with HH deep cuts but I don’t know how anyone can honestly say that a HH greatest hits collection isn’t just about as good as it gets. Tell me what ’60s band has as strong a greatest hits set but I’ll tell you now you won’t convince me there are more than a handful.
E. has ticked off those greatest hits and his citation of the contribution of Mickie Most is correct. His work on HH and Donovan are enough to put him in the producer hall of fame as far as I’m concerned.
One of the biggest reasons the ’60s were the peak for music was how many perfect pop trifles there were and how many perfect pop talents there were. Producer/arrangers like George Martin, Phil Spector, Brian Wilson. Bacharach, Most, Talmy, H-D-H and the rest of Motown; writers like Bacharach & David, Jimmy Webb, Wilson, Laura Nyro, the Brill Building crew; musicians like the Funk Brothers and the Wrecking Crew; artists that I hope I don’t need to list so I’ll list the ones no-one else on here would list like Glen Campbell or Petula Clark or Tommy James or on and on and on.
Not too many of them changed the course of music but, man, did they make some perfect pop trifles.
I’ll take a back seat to no-one in my love for someone like Captain Beefheart but there’s no time and no place that I’ll turn off those pop trifles by the artists I listed and I can’t say the same for the Captain.
Seriously, how can someone love ELO but not love Herman’s Hermits? Isn’t one just a ’70s version of the other? I’ve got a lot of ELO on my shelves and they have one heckuva greatest hits set but I’ll take HH’s greatest over ELO’s greatest any day of the week.
Alright, 5 out of 7.
Hrundi,
I will make you a deal. If you can find an MP3 of “My Reservation’s Been Confirmed”, the actual recording produced by Mickie Most, and post it here at RTH, I will refrain from reminding you, in public, to smoke pot. It was my intention of using the track as one of the bullets in my cylinder, but I couldn’t find it anywhere on line. That track alone makes a reconsideration of Herman’s Hermits absolutely and positively worthwhile.
Sincerely,
E. Pluribus
Hrundi,
My guess is that you’ve never seen a very mediocre documentary of the Stones entitled “12 X 5 : The Continuing Adventures of The Rolling Stones.” I make that accusation based on the fact that once again, your formative years were pissed away celebrating the work of your Holy Trinity of pop: ZZ Top, ELO, and Prince. Anyway, in the documentary, my hero and supposedly (strong emphasis on supposedly) yours, Keef, talks about a blind angel who saves his ass in Canada by calling up prime minister Trudeau, begging him to give Keef a break on his trafficing charges. If Keef can convince the rest of the assholes in his band to play a benefit for the blind, Keef can walk. The other assholes in Keef’s band oblige and Keef does indeed walk.
Know that my blind angel hath arrived in the form of Al. Everything I’ve ever wanted to say, but couldn’t say half as well has now been said by Al.
‘Nuff said!
E. Pluribus
C’mon Hrundi!
Al is waiting. And just for the record, Al isn’t expecting a whole hell of a lot. As a matter of fact, none of us are.
E. Pluribus
Al, this is very important: don’t be fooled. E. Pluribus Gergley has no love for pop trifles. He has love for *certain* pop trifles, and no others. And (truth be told) he has a weird, slightly malfunctioning bullshit detector when it comes to *those*. He talks a great game about six-inch Jensen speakers, Mickie Most and Mercury this/Chess that, but at the end of the day, he probably hates almost everything you love. And he thinks YOU SUCK for loving it.
I, on the other hand, am a near-category-wide lover of pop trifles — including modern ones, which Plurbie doesn’t even acknowledge exist. Herman’s Hermits, however, just don’t do it for me. They’re like the Osmonds, as opposed to the Jackson 5. “I Want You Back” is an amazing song. “One Bad Apple” just vaguely smells of dog shit, even though it was crafted — probably by America’s answer to Mickie Most — to be a perfect replica. Discerning palates can taste the difference.
Like I said previously, neither Al or any of us for that matter were expecting much.
“I Want You Back” vs. “One Bad Apple”. You certainly are slick! You really drew back the curtain on that one!
And for that matter, what is this crap? “I Want You Back” is better and/or cooler because a Motown thinktank is behind it? Just for the record, Rick Hall and his buddies down at Muscle Shoals are the band on “One Bad Apple”. How are they something less than “The Corporation”? . . . And just for the record, shame on me for using your kind of screwed up logistics to judge either of the songs. A record is a good record if it sounds good period. Hell, even if you were in the producer’s chair for whatever track, I’d try my damndest not to let that interfere with any judgements rendered.
PLEASE SMOKE SOME POT FOR YOUR SAKE AND THE SAKE OF OTHERS WHO MAY COME INTO CONTACT WITH YOU.
E. Pluribus
Hey Al,
Help me out here! Free VG- copy of “She’s Wanted” by Larry Clinton if you show up within the next 30 minutes.
E. Pluribus
Gergles said:
And for that matter, what is this crap? “I Want You Back” is better and/or cooler because a Motown thinktank is behind it? Just for the record, Rick Hall and his buddies down at Muscle Shoals are the band on “One Bad Apple”. How are they something less than “The Corporation”? .
I ask:
Have you been spending your summer vacation attending record conventions or something? What kind of ass-backwards logic is THAT? The reasons the Osmonds suck is because THEY’RE THE FUCKING OSMONDS. No amount of producer/house band/songwriter mojo makes up for the fact that Donny Osmond ain’t no Michael Jackson. Hell, Wayne Osmond ain’t even no Tito! And Herman’s Hermits… drum roll… ain’t no Kinks, or Stones, or Zombies, or Dave Clark Five, or Easybeats — or even… hell, they’re not even the McCoys. Give me “Hang On, Sloopy” any day over any of those Hermits numbers.
Mod is right — let’s pull the curtain back on this thing: Peter Noone is the problem here. At least the other dudes in the “band” don’t make me want to lunge for the liquor cabinet when I watch clips of “Mrs. Brown…” like faux-Oliver Twist Noone does. News flash: I’m not a nine year-old girl!
Sorry to have to open both barrels on you, E., but this has gone on long enough. If I have to be the guy to take the buckshot in my ass over this, so be it. I know *somebody* will have my back eventually. Maybe even Al.
HVB
Them are some serious water pistols!
I never said Herman’s Hermits were in the same league as The Kinks or The Stones. All I said was to give them a fair shake, which you still refuse to do. Man, what is it with you? Take off the friggin’ Speidel wrist bracelet and try listening to the records without worrying what the cast and crew of RTH will think about you should you change your mind about the whole Herman thing. Give all that a rest. And know that there’s no respect there anyway. They all think the same thing that I think -THAT YOU NEED TO SMOKE SOME POT FOR YOUR OWN SAKE AND THE SAKE OF OTHERS WHO MAY COME INTO CONTACT WITH YOU. Erase the image of Noone and his pasteboard teeth singing his heart out and enjoy!
. . . .You know what, scrap all that. What was it? Two years ago that you finally figured out that there was decent black music to listen to besides The Jackson Five and Prince? Honestly, how am I supposed to work with that?
Go get some sleep. If you decide to take a shower tonight, remember to take off the Speidel wrist bracelet. I heard those things are kinda cheap and tend to rust.
E. Pluribus
I would never oversell the Hermits. I do recommend that they be heard rather than seen. The cuteness factor is kept in its place that way. Unfortunately youtube is not doing its job as a jukebox, so I can’t point you to their version of one of their big hits, Can’t You Hear My Heartbeat, except as a TV performance. But for an example of Mickie Most’s prowess, compare the Hermits’ version of the song with the one by Goldie & the Gingerbreads over in the female garage rock thread. Youtube will also let you hear Marianne Faithfull’s harpsichordy version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwa5D4d21Go
I’m slightly partial to Herman’s Hermits because they were my first rock concert experience, back in I guess 1965. (Wayne Fontana & the Mindbenders was the other band on the bill.) But no they’re not in the same league as the Kinks.
Peter Noone did make a very respectable new wave album in 1980 as The Tremblers though.
Without Herman’s Hermits, we likely don’t get to hear Gordon Gano sing “third verse, same as the first” in the Violent Femme’s “Prove My Love”. Since that’s one of my all time favorite songs, it justifies the existence of Herman’s Hermits in my book. What exactly have the Stones done for me? Not a damn thing, so far as I can tell.
Sorry I’m past your 30 minutes, so you’ll have to find another home for “She’s Wanted”. That’s a great great tune. I’d say offer it to hvb but I don’t suspect he’ll like it since it’s not Motown or Stax/Volt.
But then again, you don’t really need me. hvb gave up the ghost when he acknowledged that “One Bad Apple” was bad simply because it was the Osmonds. In fact, I infer from what he said that he does believe it’s a good song but he can’t admit it because he’s too cool to, you know, like the Osmonds.
Now, I’m not sure I could name any other Osmonds song but I can say that One Bad Apple is a great pop trifle, Corporation or no Corporation, and I wouldn’t turn the dial if that showed up on the oldies station here. Which it never does but maybe the programmer thinks it’s not cool enough or that research has shown that there is a whole ocean of hvbs out there listening who will turn the dial in search of ZZ Top. E, we know that ZZ Top never made a song as good as One Bad Apple. ELO and Prince have but not ZZ Top.
This is exactly the general undercurrent I referenced, this attitude that if it’s merely a pop song, that that somehow devalues it.
I’ll back HVB up here. Herman’s Hermits? Blecch. It’s not just because I don’t like pop fluff, because i like plenty of it. It’s because:
Missus Brown Eeyoove Gah Uh Luvvlee Dah Uh
I can compare No Milk Today to being poked in the forehead with a Dixon Beginner’s Pencil for two and a half minutes.
I really, truly hate Henuhry The Ape. Even when I was a little kid, I just hated that song.
It’s not Herman’s Hermits’ fault, but I never liked Can’t You Feel My Heartbeat, either.
I know it’s totally uncool to like The Yardbirds Little Games album, but I think Mickie Most did a nice job with the songs the band brought him, and he helped them pick good songs to cover and I think it’s a swell album.
I think Mod’s got something with that Dick Van Dyke thing. I’m pretty sure Peter Noone is from Manchester, NH and learned how to be British from watching Mary Poppins. It’s pretty believable.
Well put, Al. Well put indeed.
And just for the record, I’ve completely had it with all these nuts that just refuse to take off the Peter Fonda sunglasses, the Fonzie leather jacket, and, for that rare one of a kind weirdo, the Speidel wrist bracelet.
Truth be told, I too hang onto a lot of that similar psychological crap because I find comfort within its skin. It takes one to know one. It does me no good whatsoever, but I refuse to let it go. We all have some kind of ball and chain around our necks. The weight varies. The heavy ass shit can be very debilitiating.
Thanks for the support. No bull here.
Sincerely,
E. Pluribus
Hey 2000 man,
Whatever! to just about everything you said. Buried in your whatevers was a hidden gem -the thumbs up for Mickie Most. He consistently receives praise from all the RTHers. That alone should tell you something. There was always a huge demand for Most’s services, and he had no problems whatsoever spending huge blocks of service time working with Herman’s Hermits. He obviously thought it was a worthwhile venture. Well, looks like I’m in good company. And having Al around makes it even better.
Just so you know, Bostonhistorian gave The Stones a shot in the nuts. I know you’re getting older and more tired, but I’ll be expecting some sort of jab from you tomorrow.
Pleasant dreams,
E. Pluribus
Hrundi,
Just a reminder befor you go to bed:
PLEASE SMOKE SOME POT FOR YOUR OWN SAKE AND THE SAKE OF OTHERS WHO MAY COME INTO CONTACT WITH YOU.
E. Pluribus
Oh, Lord.
I watched Kubrick’s “The Killing” last night. That movie kicked so much ass, at so many levels, it wasn’t funny. One of the great ongoing scenes in the flick featured a weaselly race track employee and his harpy wife, who always managed — crudely, maybe, but effectively — to twist weaselly dude’s words around and eventually make him betray his friends.
I’m shocked at how easily ol’ E. has managed the same trick with all of you. I say the whitebread cheesiness of Herman’s Hermits reminds me of the Osmonds, and that the Osmonds sucked the bad part of pop music’s ass. Suddenly — whoah, what’s this? RTH comes riding to the Osmonds’ rescue! Otherwise right-thinking people accuse me of snobbery! Suddenly I can’t handle “trifle”!
I won’t stoop to proving my love for mediocre pop music, even though doing so would neatly imply that my disdain for Herman’s Hermits has more to do with their fundamental sub-average output than any “cool points” over which I am falsely accused of obsessing.
For the sake of clarity, though, let me summarize —
My belief: Herman’s Hermits are not very good. Not even as purveyors of mid-60s “trifle,” of which there was plenty of high quality during HH’s hey-day. I don’t think HH deserve the kind of critical upgrade Plurbie is desperately seeking.
Not my belief: Herman’s Hermits are utterly worthless. Pop “trifle” is not enjoyable in any form. Pop music has to be “serious” to be good. HH would have to be as good as the Stones, Kinks, etc., for me to want to listen to them.
All clear?
Now: how many of you newly minted HH fans are tired of the smell of Gergley’s ass-cleft?
Defending the Osmonds… sheesh!
It might help if somebody, anybody said “I like this song because it does so and so…” or “I hate that song because it sounds like such and such…”
We all like cheese some of the time. What is it about this cheese that you don’t like? And what would giving HH “a fair shake” consist of? Do I have to do more than say they made clever pop records?
And if epg won’t post his deep trax and youtube won’t fill in the gaps, we’re all working from memory or 30-second snippets on Itunes. No wonder all we’re stuck in ad hominem arguments.
I could see someone saying that weed might help hvb appreciate Dylan or the Dead, but Herman’s Hermits?
Hrundi,
Just to play devil’s advocate, please provide examples of high quality 60s trifles.
Big Steve,
My deep trax were posted along with hits. Why? Hrundi and CDM were only familiar with about three or four HH songs period.
E. Pluribus
A question:
If Peter Noone is in fact from Manchester New Hampshire and learned his accent from Mary Poppins, is that any worse than Mick Jagger being from England and learning his accent from Amos and Andy routines?
“When de train…..left de stayshun….”
Well said, Bostonhistorian. And that’s coming from a huge Stones fan. I gave 2000 man a heads up, to let him know that you were gunning for him. Why he refuses to engage in battle is beyond me. He’s being a real pussy, and that’s just not like him.
Something’s just not right about all this.
Sincerely,
E. Pluribus
I just want to put my 2 cents in this matter & say that I’m with E. Pluribus on the Herman’s Hermits question. I remember listening to their version of “Dandy” on the radio when I was a kid, as well as their other hits. I own two CD comps of theirs. As other people pointed out, no they were not the Kinks nor the Stones or the Beatles & yes I can see how Peter Noone’s shtick can be grating. However, to me their songs are “comfort food” in a sense. A few great songs of theirs that I haven’t seen mentioned are “Museum”, that Donovan wrote & was their last top 40 hit, “Wings of Love”, a song by the 60s Nirvana & “London Look” a song originally done for Yardley Cosmetics & was written by Graham Goulding, who also wrote several of their hit singles, which no one else has mentioned. Another group who used the “second verse, same as the first” bit from Henry VIII were the Ramones in “Judy Is A Punk”.
You posted the names of the tracks, epg. If you want people to listen to them and possibly appreciate them, you have to post the actual tracks, since youtube doesn’t have them.
Wow, much ado about not much. Ermin’s Ermits artful dodger rock gets the appropriate amount of respect they deserve. They are pleasant enough trifles worthwhile in very small doses. I agree their accents are a “lit-uwl too English cockney precious, ain’t they, Guv-nah”? and most of their stuff sounds like it was recorded before they grew any hair down there. Still I don’t change the station when they pop on the radio.
P.S., Plurbie. Don’t worry about me. I just cleared a huge tuber of Humboldt County’s finest, and I’m flying! I’m going to trip out to Mrs. Brown with the headphones on.
I’m not gunning for anyone, just observing that certain types of attacks backfire more often than they succeed. One could make the case that the Stones are far more contrived than Herman’s Hermits.
Are we really sure they didn’t omit the space in Noone name? He reminds me of a Kennedy cousin that couldn’t get elected.
I will say these tracks are better than the treacly “Mrs. Brown” type, 2nd-rate Merseybeat thingies and standard cover retreads I was expecting. But their cover of Dandy really makes me appreciate the Kinks even more, and then I wonder if there aren’t also other versions of these songs that might be just as good by Manfred Mann or whoever.
Actually, I don’t dispute where Gergely has positioned them too much, I just wonder if such a position is really exalted – somewhere in the Hollies range. That’s lesser British Invasion type stuff. The trouble is their identity is as a confection, and not with songwriting or a strong personality as a part of their image. As a confection, for instance, the Monkees are far more entertaining and have more good material. But HH seem to play pretty well, the drummer in particular lays down a nice pop on the snare in the live clips I’ve found. Also interesting is the gravitational movement of the bass downward on the bassist as the years progress. Those guys are the band version of the dancers on Top Of The Pops or something, no wonder they stayed on the charts, no chances seem to have been taken.
This might help convince Hrrundi –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_UVWPSsohs&feature=related
Mockcarr says:
Those guys are the band version of the dancers on Top Of The Pops or something, no wonder they stayed on the charts, no chances seem to have been taken.
I say:
Bravo!
Chickenfrank,
Again, I never said they were on a Stones or Kinks level. All I was asking is that they be given a fair shake.
Mockcarr,
All that is fair enough. That said, I disagree on your assessment of “Dandy”. Somebody in the Hermits camp, most probably Most, heard the Kinks recording of “Dandy” on “Face to Face”, an album crammed with noble efforts that fail flat, with the exception of the obvious winners like “Sunday Afternoon”, and decided there was enough meat on the thing to make something interesting out of it. Most and HH did some solid turd polishing.
You hear magic in the original Kinks recording? I hear a bunch of guys taking a half assed whack at the thing just to get the track in the can.
E. Pluribus
Sometime after my son was born, I decided that I didn’t want to consign my fate to that of my older brother: listening to an endless loop of grating kids songs in the car. What’s the difference, I reasoned, between Move It On Over by Hank Williams and Wheels on the Bus? To my kids: nothing. To me: a lot. I’m not trying to raise hipster kids; I have no agenda other than maintaining my sanity.
Fast forward to today. The kids (5 year old boy and a 3 year old girl) and I were in the car. The boy asked to hear a Message to You Rudy and Catch Us If You Can. The girl wanted to hear Kung Fu Fighting. All songs I really like and all pop trifles of some degree or another.
My question remains why should Herman get my attention and money? Surely Carl Douglas must have another gem is his catalog that went unappreciated by the public.
To me, Herman’s Hermits used the skills they had to the very best of their abilities, and made a couple of good songs. The same way I feel about Bob Seger.
But for a band that I think really went further in the 60s pop field, that would be the Mamas and the Papas.
Not that I think it’s wrong to debate the merits of Herman’s Hermits–but I kind of feel the stakes here are rather small.
Simply put,
I wanted Herman’s Hermits to have a fair shake because they’ve been this blog’s number one whipping boy target since its inception. Somebody, can’t remember who it was, took another pot shot at them about a week or so ago, and I decided to make an effort to bring it to an end.
And this is the last time I bring this up -it is extremely offensive to me that a pack of total zeros, like The Replacements, with no chops and no songs, will remain a darling of the critics, whilst a group like HH, with chops and songs, will be continually penalized as forgetable teenyboppers.
E. Pluribus
ePlurb, I’m not sure what to do about bostonhistorian and The Stones. He’s a historian, so he knows he’s wrong about them, but he just doesn’t care. I think when he listens to Now! he’s busy analyzing the tingle in his ass instead of just letting it shake all around, the way Now! makes everyone else’s ass shake. To his credit, he doesn’t mind taking an unpopular opinion, and he likes some seriously odd garage rawk that I can really get behind. Then again, he has a favorite Violent Femmes song, so what do I know? I know that Mick Jagger is known as Mick Jagger and Peter Noone is known as some guy named Herman.
I’m pretty sure that the successful sales numbers racked up by HH were because of all those nine year old girls’ grandmothers buying the records in the hopes they’d have something in common with their granddaughters. It’s the only thing that makes any sense to me.
Hey! I’m not a critic! And I love the Replacements. Even if they have no chops and no songs, they still have a place on my record shelf anytime.
All that’s fair. To be honest with ya, I don’t give a flying fuck about whether you like Herman’s Hermits or not. Again, I do not care one whit. But sitting around and playing with yourself while someone boldly insults The Stones is a whole ‘nother matter.
And another thing, where the hell is your 800 page + “History of Rock and Roll through the Lens of a Stones Fan”. You talked a big ass game about that so called tome you were writing, and so far I haven’t seen a single chapter, page, paragraph, or word from said project. What happened?
E. Pluribus
Here’s an interesting tidbit from Wikipedia. The tracks we most associate with HH were not even singles in the UK:
Their first hit was “I’m Into Something Good” (written by US songwriters Gerry Goffin and Carole King), which reached no. 1 in the UK and No. 13 in the US in 1964. They never topped the British charts again, but had two US no. 1’s with “Mrs. Brown, You’ve Got a Lovely Daughter” (originally sung by Tom Courtenay in a 1963 British TV play) and “I’m Henry the Eighth, I Am” (a British music hall song by Harry Champion dating from 1911). These songs were aimed at a US fan-base, with Peter Noone exaggerating his Manchester accent; the band was not fond of either song and they were never released as singles in Britain.
And the claim that HH have been “this blog’s number one whipping boy target” just proves how little time epg actually spends here.
E., what No one does with Dandy is as much as your pop star of the day might do, sanitize it for the younsters. What Ray does is sing his own feckin song with some bottom end by Quaife and a wink in his delivery like, oh, how I wish I could get off with all the easy ladies after the show, but I’m too messed up to do so, but even so, that kind of unbridled sexual congress is a-ok with me despite conventional British wisdom. Probably it’s about his brother who he stopped having a fight with a couple hours before he wrote it.
Sorry I left out a “g”. I always leave a lot out.
And 2000 Man, that was some seriously fine satire.
Big Steve,
All that may be true, but what bothers me more than anything at present is 2000 Man’s so called 800+ page tome, “A History of Rock and Roll Through the Lens of a Stones Fan.” In the past, he talked a big game about this so called monster, and so far nothing has been delivered whatsoever. I think I can speak for all RTHers that evidence be submitted showing that some effort has been put forth to allow the man to run his mouth about it. Hell, I’ll settle for a paragraph of the fucking thing.
How ’bout it, Big Steve? Wouldn’t you like at least a little taste?
Hoping to hear from you soon,
E. Pluribus
Mockcarr,
I agree that he does all that, but none of it works, at least for me. I take that song and just about everything else on “Face to Face” as a stepping stone toward greater things that began to come to fruition on “Something Else”.
And by the way, that’s a neat topic, the transitional LP. Something should be done with that.
E. Pluribus
It’s really hard to shake your ass to Now! if you’ve heard Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley, Willie Dixon, Solomon Burke, et al. I don’t see much difference between what the Stones do to those songs and what people get all over garage rock revivalists for doing. It’s all pleasant and competent, but fetishism is fetishism, and the Stones are as guilty as anyone. I don’t want to go too far down the path about “authenticity”, but good lord, I don’t see how anyone could want to listen to the versions on Now! when the originals exist.
I have to say, I’ve got HVB’s back on that No Milk Today song, too. Riff-driven jangly guitar.
2000 Man probably thinks, perhaps without good reason, that the world may not be ready for that book. Besides, who reads books? MAYBE, just MAYBE, they listen to them. 2000 Man, would you record these ramblings for Gergely?
2000 MAN! NOW IS THE TIME FOR THE UNVEILING!! PLEASE FIRE BACK WITH CHAPTERS, PARAGRAPHS,. . .CHRIST ALMIGHTY, I’LL SETTLE FOR A JACKET BLURB AT THIS POINT. . .FROM “A HISTORY OF ROCK AND ROLL THROUGH THE LENS OF A STONES FAN”!
PLEASE DON’T DISAPPOINT ME AND YOUR FELLOW BRETHREN AT RTH!
E. PLURIBUS
I dunno. For instance, I like Around and Around by Chuck Berry AND the Rolling Stones. Most times, I prefer the Stones version, but they do different things, and that’s no knock on Chuck’s take. It’s pretty dumb to believe a song can only be done one way if it has that flexibility. There are definitive versions, as you may argue, but that doesn’t mean a different version can’t also work.
I’ve got to say I’m totally in agreement with bostonhistorian on the dubious pleasures of the early Stones. Once they started to write more of their own songs though, I’m with them all the way.
And no, I don’t want to see 2000man badgered into writing whatever epg believes he promised to write. 2k contributes a lot to this blog already, even if he doesn’t start a lot of threads.
I guess I’m just not seeing that the Stones do anything appreciably different or superior with their early cover versions, and Mick Jagger’s vocal affectations really diminish my pleasure in listening to them.
But anyway, Herman’s Hermits.
BigSteve is on the money. Once the Stones start writing songs and their LPs aren’t 75% covers and Mick has to sing them in his own (sort of) voice, the improvement in quality is exponential. The same thing happens with the Kinks. I don’t know enough about Herman’s Hermits to know how much input they had into writing the songs they recorded, but perhaps that’s part of the issue with their legacy, that they never took that leap?
An interruption: Here’s another photo of HVB hero Mike Watt and another HVB hero:
http://hootpage.com/stooges_tourshots_2010/watt+paul-weller-100813.jpg
We did it! We actually did it! RTH has officially written more words about the D-list Ermin’s Ermits than any other outlet in the last 40 years. Everyone give yourselves a big round of applause!
The thing is, I don’t think Mick’s a good singer, but he is an interesting performer. So for him, doing schtick isn’t such a gamble, since his “own” voice isn’t compelling. He’s learning about what he can do on those early songs.
But let’s face it, Chuck Berry isn’t a great singer either and so what?
Shame on you, 2000 Man.
E. Pluribus
Hey, I’m workin’ here! That involves driving a car and stuff so sadly, RTH isn’t my top priority.
Did I say I was gonna write 800 pages of essentially my firm belief that Keith Richards invented Rock N Roll, no matter what happened before he ever played a note or picked up a Telecaster? I think I meant that when you bring up something like Herman’s Hermits, I would hold them up to The Stones, and always find everybody lacking when it came to the Greatness of The Rolling Stones. And on that score, I’m pretty sure you could take Now! and slice it in half and invert the sides and glue them back together so the middle of the record is facing the outsides, and it would STILL be the best album of the first half of the 60’s. Mainly because they kicked all those cover songs square in the ass, where they needed it most.
Who needs a good singer when you’ve got Mick Jagger, anyway?
“Mainly because they kicked all those cover songs square in the ass, where they needed it most.”
Those Rolling Stones covers are the equivalent of a cowboy riding a bull at the rodeo. Being barely able to hold on for eight seconds counts as a triumph, even when the bull stomps you after the ride is over.
EPG wrote:
No, no, no – they’re just YOUR RTH cross to bear, they’re YOUR Holy Trinity of Rock.
I’ve got to thank all of you for keeping this place so entertaining and active in my absence. I’ve only had a couple of minutes to check in per day or every other day, but even a few minutes here gives me a lot of chuckles AND insights in the the Rock Lover’s Psyche. It’s a healthy thing, I can tell you.
Oats, thanks for that photo. Funny, Weller is the college rock obsession of mine that may have aged the worst — and I don’t mean that literally.
But that pic reminds me of my fave Weller-meets-other-rock-guy story, as told by Andy Partridge. Andy was evidently on the floor at some British dept. store, playing with tin soldiers (THAT ought to tell you something), when who should walk up but Paul Weler, who was presumably on the lookout for a new scarf. Anyhow, Weller recognized Andy and mumbled something in the way of a greeting, then turned away, embarrassed to have interrupted Partridge’s man-child reverie.
2000Man said:
And on that score, I’m pretty sure you could take Now! and slice it in half and invert the sides and glue them back together so the middle of the record is facing the outsides, and it would STILL be the best album of the first half of the 60’s.
I say:
Now THAT’s funny! I don’t agree with you, but it’s still funny.
Finally, Hrundi, we can agree on something. That was indeed VERY funny!
Have a good one,
E. Pluribus
Mod,
You have something to post. Just a reminder.
Welcome back!
E. Pluribus
I have nothing against Herman’s Hermits aside from the silly name and a couple truly annoying singles (Mrs. Brown and Henry the 8th). Scrape that away and they don’t bother me one bit. I’ve always thought “Listen, People” was song ripe for jangly-pop group to unearth.
Garage goobers go apeshit over a number of bands who had maybe one decent song and the rest of the catalog is as annoying (if not more so) than the Hermits.
Petesecrutz observed:
Garage goobers go apeshit over a number of bands who had maybe one decent song and the rest of the catalog is as annoying (if not more so) than the Hermits.
I say:
E. Pluribus, see the company you keep!
petesecrutz made an excellent point in helping to frame this discussion, if you ask me!
“Garage goobers go apeshit over a number of bands who had maybe one decent song and the rest of the catalog is as annoying (if not more so) than the Hermits.”
You’ll have to pry my Back to the Grave LPs out of my cold dead fingers….
I would never pry Back From The Grave, Pebbles, Boulders, Nuggets..etc LP’s from anyone’s hands. I love ’em. They give me all I need to hear from The Shamrocks.
My point is if say we only heard “Listen People” by The Hermits they might be considered cool, but since we have been exposed to “lesser” tracks, they get slighted.
Seriously…have you heard the other songs by The Count 5? I
Holy Mother of Pearl, you go on vacation and next thing you know there is a 90 message thread on Herman’s Bloody Hermits. God knows they’re an easy target and very silly. Other than the oft-cited annoying novelty hits I have always enjoyed hearing their other hits…once in a while. Which, since I don’t own anything by them, is not often. If they had had, say, 3 hits only–Can’t You Hear My Heartbeat, No Milk Today, I’m Into Something Good, to pick three–they would be remembered no less fondly in the U.S. than Gerry and the Pacemakers. And, yes, I realize that can be taken two ways.