Mar 172009
What’s the best Irish pride song by a non-Irish national? Lennon, McCartney, Costello, and I’m sure Dripkick Murphys have such songs in their catalogs. I’m sure there are more.
What’s the best Irish pride song by a non-Irish national? Lennon, McCartney, Costello, and I’m sure Dripkick Murphys have such songs in their catalogs. I’m sure there are more.
Is The Roches song, “The Troubles,” about Ireland? If so, that may be my favorite.
Mr. Mod, Were you being a bit of a wag there, with the name “The DrIpkick Murphys, or was it merely a wee typo? Either way, it’s pretty funny!
I’m gonna go with The Pogues, “Streets of Sorrow/Birmingham Six” from the album, “If I Should Fall From Grace With God”. The 1st few verses (“Streets of Sorrow”) were written by Terry Woods, who IS a Dubliner, but the bulk of the song (Birmingham Six) was written by Shane, who was born in Kent, England, but moved to Tipperary soon after, & spent his 1st 6 yrs. there before returning to England. So it SHOULD count, eh? Here are some of the lyrics;
There were six men in Birmingham
In Guilford there’s four
That were picked up and tortured
And framed by the law
And the filth got promotion
But they’re still doing time
For being Irish in the wrong place
And at the wrong time
It’s a nice indictment of the Brits abuse of power, & usually gets me good and fightin’ mad by the end.
Also, something more recent, & one which I NEVER would have expected to get my Irish up, is that Morrissey song, “Irish Blood, English Heart”, which is similar in it’s general theme, though not about a specific incident.
May The Road Rise, Boyos!
No non-Irish need apply.
Seriously though, that poll question is great because it’s tough.
Doesn’t Van Morrison count as a non-Irish national? Being from Belfast he grew up as a citizen of the UK, right?
Of course, I can’t really think of any Irish pride numbers, as such. Listen to the Lion had those lines “And we sailed, and we sailed, away from Denmark, way up to Caledonia,” and then later “And we sailed, and we sailed, around the world, looking for a brand new start.” It’s sort of a theme song for the Irish diaspora. That’s all I got.
Well Steve, You’re probably right about Van The Man, as he was descendant of Ulster Scots, which, I would believe, means he’s therefore Protestant, &, as such, could be considered a citizen of the UK, though I’ve never heard him speak of such matters. He DOES seem to have an affinity for the Celtic side of things, but I don’t really know what nationality he considers himself, or if he thinks about things in those terms at all. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, though.
One thing, though. Merely coming from Northern Ireland wouldn’t automatically put you in the category of UK citizen. That’s what all the fighting & killing has been about. In general, the Catholics feel that they should be considered Irish citizens, while the Protestants lean toward the Brits (Church of England, and all). It’s all very complicated & confusing, esp. for those raised in one or other of the camps, who don’t believe in religion. At that point it’s a political problem. I’ve got relatives in this situation, & even though the violence isn’t what it was, it’s still something that hangs over them, & could turn bloody again, esp. in times such as these.
I dunno, but I went downtown and had Guinness and a corned beef sandwich as big as my head today. I think we should do that every day!
AAARRRGGHHH!!! CORNED- FEKKIN’-BEEF!!!
The Guinness part’s OK, though, because Guinness is good for you (I hope it was on tap, & not that Canadian crap they put in the bottles these days!).
Oh yeah, Fuck Winston Legthigh & his goddamn patronization! Who the hell asked YOU, anyway (though, I guess it beats Macca’s “Mull of Kytire”, but what doesn’t?)!
Shoulda been worried about his OWN fekkin’ luck!
Sorry, I meant “Mull of Kyntire”. But, Fuck “Nasty” anyway!
Re Morrison: clearly what makes someone an Irish national has to do with how you define it, and while one definition has to do with whether you’re a UK citizen or a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, another has to do with the plain fact of living on the island. Morrison is from Ireland, and so he’s Irish, according to that definition. His early music certainly shares the tough street feel of later Irish bands, and obviously there’s a Celtic folk influence on his later music.
But does he count as Irish on the very Catholic St. Patrick’s Day? Probably not. His own religious philosophy seems clearly Protestant. He shares with C.S. Lewis (expressed through his music exclusively, as far as I know) what might be called “Northernness,” a belief in the religious and spiritual significance of living in Northern Europe. It’s a point of view that’s very pronounced in his lyrics–all those northern lights and so forth that populate his lyrics. It can have some questionable underpinnings (he likes the word “Aryan,” which has obviously become more than a bit soiled) but for the most part he doesn’t come across as too authoritarian, although there are exceptions (like the song “The Mystery” on Poetic Champions Compose).
Since I’m the only one that cares about this, I guess we (I) could add E.C.’s “Oliver’s Army”, no matter how obtuse it is lyrically. I still think it was about Northern Ireland (who else were they occupying at the time?).
Wow, MWall, You just blew my mind, Bucko!
I know YOU know Van like the back of your hand, as I remember (along w/R. Thompson). So, I guess we CAN count Van as a NON-national, eh?
You’re also correct about this being a VERY Catholic Day, as it’s in remembrance of the day St. Paddy (who brought Catholicism to Ireland) supposedly died (even though he was born in England himself; gotta love those religions!).
Van Morrison was born in a country called IRELAND. I don’t care what part of Ireland it was, who rules it, who’s killing who over it…I’m American, and I have trouble keeping track of anything more than the name of the entire country. Van is Irish.
I had no idea that McGowan wasn’t born in Ireland. Good call, Bobbyb.
Fascinating that even this topic could lead to debate. Rock Town Hall, you continue to dazzle!
Mr. Mod, C’mon now. Isn’t that the kind of thinking that has the rest of the world thinking the US are a bunch of bumpkins? This stuff matters, if not to you, then certainly to the people living in that country.
BTW, I have little doubt that Shane M. considers himself IRISH. I’ve read his book (well, his wife’s, but it’s mostly quotes from the man himself). As much as a souse he may come off as, the guy has an encyclopedic knowledge of Irish history.
Van is Irish, of course. But the thread didn’t say song by a non-Irish person. It said non-Irish national. And Van is most certainly not an Irish national.
Bobbyb, I was kidding around a bit, but really, he’s from the country called IRELAND. I’m standing by the gist of my point. Van Morrison is Irish. I can’t begin to get into anyone’s politics when it comes to matters of nationalism. That’s their business.
Fine, Mwall, why don’t we stage a hunger strike over the distinction? This may be the first time EVER that someone has tried to take Van from the Irish. Give Van Back to the Irish!
NEWS FLASH: U2 Is Now Undisputed Titans of Irish Rock!
In a landmark decision, Rock Town Hall determined that Van Morrison is not an Irish national and therefore might as well not be considered an Irish rocker but a British one. As a result, U2 can lay claim once and for all to the title of Greatest Irish Rockers.
“Who’s gonna challenge us now,” said Bono, when asked to comment on Morrison’s newly assigned status. “Frickin’ Thin Lizzy? The Undertones? That wacky bald broad?”
NEWSFLASH: TO AVERT CERTAIN DISASTER, THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND HAS PROCLAIMED VAN MORRISON TO, INDEED, BE IRISH!!! MORE NEWS AS IT DEVELOPS!
When reached for comment, Shane MacGowan stated, “Bono? Ya mean Cher’s old husband? He’s dead, innit he?”
Horslips could not be reached for comment.
Bob Geldof was heard to exclaim, “What about ME, YA BASTARRRDS!!! LIVE AID!?! RING ANY FEKKIN” BELLS, YA FEKKIN’ SHITES!?! FUCK ME, “I DON”T LIKE MONDAYS” WAS FEKKIN’ HUUUUGE!!!! I WAS BONO BEFORE THERE WAS A BONO, YA FUCKS!!!”
He was summarily tazered by British authorities, leading Mr. MacGowan to state, “What’d oi tell ya.”
Well, the great thing about St. Paddy’s day is that today, everybody is an Irishman. And I mean everybody.
But ah, Mod. Your word choice, your can of worms. Try to stuff it back in the can all you want, but I’d love to see you stand by your decision in a Dublin bar tonight.
All in good fun…
But actually, as I think about it further, I’m not sure there’s a single word about the Irish conflict in any Van Morrison lyric. Am I right about that? Is that true of the Undertones also? Anybody know?
I’m thankful, Mwall, that you’ve pointed out that Van may not have an entry in this competition even if he’s not, technically, and Irish national. It takes a bit of heat off me for the Pince Nez you guys so ruthlessly pulled on me.
The Undertones’ song “It’s Gonna Happen” was initially intended to be about “The Troubles” – and supposedly did. I forget which brother wrote the lyrics, but he eventually changed them to make them more open-ended and not directly tied to the subject, but that’s what inspired the song and what the songwriter had in mind.
Cue Berlyant to fill in specific details, including not only the songwriter’s name but his special Irish spelling of his first name, which he would use in That Petrol Emotion.
Cue BigSteve to note the Sincerity Fallacy that I’ve introduced into this discussion.
It’s gonna happen:)
BTW, Moddy, Sayin’ you were kidding around, & then restating the same opinion, leads one to believe that you were, INDEED, saying, “Oh, you little ancient countries, don’t bother ME, a citizen of the “great” USA, with your petty squabbles. I don’t have time for it; I’ve gotta figure out whether The Raspberries were better than Cheap Trick.”
WTF?
No, Bobby, my tone was what was of jest. I wasn’t kidding about what I said, including admission of my own ignorance of The Troubles. If you want to get into my views on issues of nationalism around the world, we can take it up on some other list to which I do not subscribe. Long story short: I hope America holds onto its ability to accept and celebrate its population’s “mutthood.” Whenever I’m in Europe and I hear someone say something to the effect of “He’s not a real [nationality to which speaker considers him- or herself]” I want to vomit. I’m not talking about a recent immigrant to that country, but someone whose people have lived in that territory for years yet whose nationality dates back to a time when the ground on which they stand belonged to a neighboring country (eg, an ethnic Slovak whose family had been in the same town for 100+ years but whose town was now part of Hungary’s borders was always brushed off as “not a real Hungarian”). The land was somehow “real Hungarian soil,” but the people who had bred on that land were not necessarily Hungarian – ever. After moments like this I want to kiss an American flag, or do something uncharacteristic like that. I know we have our yahoos who would like to think there’s such a thing as “real” American, but for the most part they’re on the fringes or easy to write off as somehow “ignorant.” So, I hope you get it and can now focus on my larger point: that Van Morrison is from a country called Ireland and therefore does not qualify for this contest, even if he has a song expressing Irish pride.
Well, it’s not like anyone else could come up with any songs of Irish nationalist pride. Is it something only we do in the US? Is there any equivalent rock song to Chuck Berry’s Living in the USA?
Everyone back slowly away from the Guinness. Or back slowly away from the Jameson’s. Or go towards it. Whatever. Everyone go towards the Guinness.
Steve, the equivalent Irish songs are in Irish folk music, and the best of that music ROCKS. Any Planxty fans on this list?
Mod, There are WAY more of those “yahoos” in this country than I think you’d like to believe. You can (I do) call them ignorant, but I don’t think it’s possible to write them off; there are too many of them. In the situation I’m in right now, I’m exposed to them constantly. The most overtly vocal, but certainly not alone, are working class whites, but it comes out in more subtle ways in people you’d think would be better educated than to look at the world in such a simple minded way. If you’re gonna tell me this country is a big “melting pot” or something to that effect, you’re barking up the wrong tree, because I see people of different ethnic groups segregating THEMSELVES more NOW than at any point in my lifetime, & the prevalence of identity politics in this society points directly to this. I’m not trying to say the rest of the world is any better, but I think we’re fooling ourselves if we pretend that it’s JUST on the fringes in the USA, & I’m sure once (if?) this country has been around under it’s colonialized state as long as those ancient European countries, we’ll hear just the same kind of comments that you were speaking of hearing in Hungary. Human beings are always able to find SOMETHING to hate about one another, no matter where you go in the world. It’s something we’ve always done well.