Feb 212009
Not a bad little song by The White Stripes on last night’s final broadcast of Late Night With Conan O’Brien, but did Jack White‘s vocals remind anyone else of this recent thread?
Not a bad little song by The White Stripes on last night’s final broadcast of Late Night With Conan O’Brien, but did Jack White‘s vocals remind anyone else of this recent thread?
You can’t possibly be comparing J.W. to Adam Sandler. I’ll admit that the performance & arrangement of ‘I Think We’re Going To Be Friends’ was probably the worst I’ve ever seen by The White Stripes, but he usually does it alone as an acoustic #. I also think he was honestly getting a little choked up, as Consy’s show was a BIG supporter of Jack’s music from the beginning. I think that’s why they were even there in the 1st place. They were rusty is all. No use getting all glib about it.
Whatever Conan may have said at the end about not changing when he takes over The Tonight Show, I kind of think it’s inevitable that it becomes a more mainstream, ‘family friendly’ presentation (it’s STILL The Tonight Show, no matter who is hosting). Personally, I’m going to miss the often surreal humor of Late Night, & I think Jack & Meg probably feel the same. So, it wasn’t The White Stripes at their best, everyone has an off night (and Meg looked like her water could break at any minute). They absolutely killed when he had them on for a week a few years ago! Give ’em a break. As much as you may have been kidding, comparing him to a hack like Sandler is just flat-out insulting.
I realize, looking at that post now that it’s up, I used the term “I think” waaay too often. At least that’s what I think.
Bobby, with all due respect, I can – and just did – compare White’s singing to Sandler’s. He’s a big boy. I’m sure he can take it. I find his posturing unnecessary, but 500,000 White Stripes fans can’t be wrong.
I like the White Stripes a lot but this is the worst performance I seen from them. You think if your voice was shot you might want to play something a little rocking to cover it up. I’m down with Meg as a drummer but she’s useless as a singer here, this feels like open-mic night in the church basement.
Perhaps it’s a fitting send off to that miserable Conan OB Show. At least they found someone equally as talented to take his place, and the band will be better.
Well, if you felt that Conan’s show was miserable as a whole, then I guess ALL the points I was trying to make would be moot. I obviously saw something in it that you didn’t. Fair enough.
Mr. Word-Up Mod, what “posturing” exactly are you talking about? It was just a bad performance. You gonna tell me you never had one? The reason they were even there, I THINK, as stated above, was to show appreciation to a program that gave them a lot of exposure, more so than any other. BTW, Mod, have you ever even heard the recorded version of that song? It’s like something Ray Davies could have written in the late 60s. Yeah, “500,000 White Stripes fans can’t be wrong” ( a fan base that includes guys like Jeff Beck, but what does he know about music, right?).
I’m really starting to get the feeling that this whole site is kind of pointless. People either like something or they don’t, & going on about it from the opposite view point isn’t going to change anyone’s mind. As far as I’ve seen so far, it does go back to “My band could beat up your band”, jr. high nattering. Music, like comedy, or any form of art, is so subjective & personal that these kinds of back & fourths, based on nothing but personal tastes, (as that, & not any in depth knowledge of the history or evolution of the music, is the baseline criteria) is starting to seem like tiresome tail-chasing. I could hang around and make snarky remarks to posts, but NEVER getting a chancoe to state anything seriously is kind of dull. So, have fun guys. Bye RTH -bb
I was wondering when the steep RTH learning curve would kick in with our new poster boy, Bobby B.
brother, you remind me of me in 2003 / 04.
if you want to defend the WS’s on reasonable grounds around here, do as you have done. state your case, and say bye bye.
don’t let them keep pullingyoubackin!!! if you do, you’re in for a night in the mines.
my own thoughts on the video are not nearly as impassioned as yours. like dbus, i think they should’ve rocked it up.
i still want to marry meg white, by the way.
meg, if you’re reading, hit me up off list, babe.
Dude, you’re accusing US of not being serious enough? Like wow.
That Jeff Beck stamp-of-approval is a real trump card. Who can argue with anything Jeff Beck has done with his career? I like the clip a little better now, thanks.
“I could hang around and make snarky remarks to posts, but NEVER getting a chance to state anything seriously is kind of dull. So, have fun guys. Bye RTH -bb”
“RTH: Love Us For A Week, Hate Us For A Lifetime”
The White Stripes played all week on Conan, right? Did anyone see any of their other performances? One would assume they broke out the rockers on at least a few of the prior episodes.
I only caught one other episode this week, but I must have crashed before the musical performance.
I think, according to the late BB, that it was a few years ago the The White Stripes did a whole week.
I think it was 2003 when they played on the show for the whole week. I kind of assumed that they played this song last night because he requested it for whatever reason. Best part of the final episode was seeing the Olde Time Baseball re-enactment camp again.
Dan, down on both The Wire and Conan? That’s rough. What if I told you Jeff Beck was a big fan of both?
Also, I know everybody’s joking, but I would totally be interested in a series of posts determining which bands could beat up other bands. And I think, if you looked in your hearts, you all would be, too.
Wait. Did that just happen? Did we run a new member off? Wow. What happened?
As far as The Stripes go, I’m a fan. And I like Conan.
TB
Hey AlexMagic,
What about an ESPN-like challenge week (ACC vs Big 10) with Southern-rock bands going up against Detroit bands?
Actually by looking at the clip I can see that Meg is as good on guitar as she is on drums 🙂
just kidding all you Meg-lovers
You know whose singing really reminds me of Adam Sandler? That Martin Sexton guy. They could be brothers in vocals, and that’s not a good thing.
Yeah Martin Sexton is Sandlerian is his reliance on irritating vocal tics. Had to unfortunately endure him opening for Neil and Tim Finn a few years ago.
Me too! Summerstage. I couldn’t believe that guy up there singing, “bleepy bloopy, weedle weedle”. WTF? Somebody likes this? Neil and Tim were great, though.
“I’m really starting to get the feeling that this whole site is kind of pointless. People either like something or they don’t, & going on about it from the opposite view point isn’t going to change anyone’s mind.”
…Ummm, no shit?
OK, OK,
I just spent the better part of a 2 hour conversation w/ a friend being dressed down for misrepresenting myself online.
I DIDN’T MEAN IT!!!
I was just playing out an Andy Kaufman scenario to see how you’d react. I was wrong to do so, & I apologize to everyone. Please don’t hate me for going for a sick, cynical, esoteric laugh.
Yes, I do like The White Stripes, but that performance was laughable. The one thing I really DO believe is that they only did it because they are friends of Conan. He helped them out earlier in their career, & HE wanted them on his last show, which, if anyone was listening, he said before the “performance” that he wasn’t sure was even going to happen.
For those even less observant, I think they didn’t “rock it up” because Meg is so far along in her pregnancy, she would’ve needed Bun E. Carlos’ giant sticks to even reach her kit. Also, sorry saturn, but I think she’s already spoken for.
Anyway, I apologize if I pissed anyone off as much as my friend with my mock outrage. I’d hoped that I would re-enter the fray in a more humorous manner, but apparently I’m just a sick, cynical fuck. Again, sorry for any discomfort I may have caused, or am causing with my return.
So, shall we rock on?
bobby wrote: “sorry saturn, but I think she’s already spoken for.”
i write: well duh. but i know in my heart of hearts that meg and i were meant to be together (he said, looking off into the distance). don’t know how it’ll happen, don’t know when…i just know it will.
bobby, on the subject of your quitting rth over this, my advice is to greet fortune and misfortune with the same even demeanor. it’s a marathon, not a sprint.
in other words, get thicker skin!
saturn, Did i not just explain that I was merely feigning outrage, & that my quitting was part of the hoax? The hide is thick enough, thanks. In fact, my muscles, veins, & most of my inner organs have been removed to make room the extra thickness of my epidermis. I’m just like an action figure these days. Saves on the high cost of feeding.
And I’ll ask Meg if she feels like heading over your way when we’re done, though she usually just wants some chocolate & a nap.
bb, my point was just to stay steadier in the saddle. you’ve had enough soda pop and cookies for one day, young man.
as for your self-described thick hide, or your feigned quitting gag, i’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, but i’m inclined not to buy it. the lady doth protest too much. it’s not very convincing stuff, to say the least.
but that’s neither here nor there. besides, you’ve provided me with plenty of entertainment on my breaks. and for this, i thank you.
let’s just move on, shall we?
Just watched the performance. I swear I just don’t get it with these guys. Amplified or acoustic, they seem like a emperor’s-new-clothes thing to me. Yuck.
hvb, i don’t even think ws fans would point to this performance as support for their argument that they’re a good act. i know i wouldn’t.
Fair enough — but I don’t like the stuff of theirs that’s reckoned by fans to be *good*. I predict — as Moddie did with surprising accuracy on the topic of Outkast — that these guys will be seen as a peculiar, somewhat embarrassing footnote in the history of rock.
well, as long as the baby boomer generation continues to call the shots, what bands besides the sex pistols, the clash, and nirvana WILL bemore than a footnote in the history of rock?
i don’t think the comparison with outkast holds up. jack’s been much more productive (in the years since ‘hey ya’ alone).
i’m not saying they’ll wind up being thought of as the pinnacle of our era, but they probably have a better shot at being perceived as “walking among the ancients” than any other current act you can name. jack tries to write like his heroes, and they, in turn, seem to think he’s good at it, and, unlike outkast, he’s got a much longer resumé that includes other bands, and critically acclaimed production credits.
that first paragraph should’ve said:
“as long as the baby boomer generation continues to call the shots, what bands [from the punk era and after] besides the sex pistols, the clash, and nirvana WILL bemore than a footnote in the history of rock?”
I agree that White Stripes have a little more going for them, long term, than Outkast. Unless Jack White can actually broaden the band’s palette – and not by making more Raconteurs records – I could see the band going down in history like T-Rex: remembered by most casual rock fans for a couple of super-catchy singles, loved by some rock nerds for what they did within narrow stylistic confines and thought of by just as many rock nerds as a band that could have, should have been better if not for their inability to work beyond their self-imposed, narrow stylistic confines.
I’d been meaning to bring this up as a generational issue, and then saturn did. I don’t get the Stripes (or the Raconteurs) at all. But it’s not as though I reject every artist from the last thirty years, so that’s not an effective argument. Actually the whole “boomers have been calling the shots for too long” complaint has been tiresome for a long time. Get over it.
I don’t get Conan either. I like him in theory and respect him, and I’ve tried to watch his show, but it does nothing for me. He’s just barely a boomer, but his sensibility is just not for me, and I always assumed it had something to do with him being 10 or so years younger than me.
The performance in the clip is pretty bad, but obviously Jack is too sick and Meg too pregnant (and so not a guitar player) to do a decent job. But they couldn’t change the date of this last show. It had been set for months. So they were troopers and toughed it out. It’s just too bad it wasn’t a memorable TV moment, like Bette and Johnny. Speaking of which, those ‘greatest generation’ people really need to move along.
BigSteve writes:
“Actually the whole “boomers have been calling the shots for too long” complaint has been tiresome for a long time. Get over it.”
my complaint is one that hasn’t been around for nearly as long as the boomers’ claim to self-importance-as-birthright has.
i find that *much more* tiresome, and much older.
and since it’s a vision of things that is largely still in practice, i’ll continue to sound my much more recently formulated complaint, no matter how much sand it puts in your vagina.
Son, we’re done. Make something of yourselves, and stop blaming us for not having done so. I’m a few weeks away from finally graduating from the fabled advertising demographic (18-55). I’m irrelevant.
It’s not like the White Stripes are so amazingly innovative that my tired old ears can’t fathom them. They’re recycling the people who recycled the people who recycled the blues. It’s the same tired shit, only it’s been tricked up with a few gimmicks — no bass, the sister/wife mystery, and a color scheme. Wow, I’m blown away! What originality!
And I should point out that it’s not like boomer Conan wanted a boomer icon like McCartney or somebody for his last show. So much for boomers as gatekeepers.
While typing this I turned on the recording of last night’s Austin City Limits, which I had set so I could see Kings of Leon. Did anyone see this? In the second half they had a very happy looking Roky Erickson with a bunch of old dudes in his band, including Billy Gibbons. They were a LOT better than Kings of Leon, but I guess I just think that because self-importance is my birthright. Or something like that.
BigSteve, we REACH. You’ve fully captured everything I think about this “band.”
Damn, I’m cheesed I missed the Gibbons/Erickson thing.
OldSteve, now you’re making my argument for me, that your generation is the most narcissistic generation history has ever seen. my generation has done plenty, in spite of your generation’s propensity to ignore it while continuing to gaze in the mirror.
peripherally, I never said the white stripes were “innovative” (yet another arbitrary, laughable measurement of accomplishment put in place by your almost dead generation).
in fact, i think your view of them in the post before, where you first got your panties in a bunch about this generational thing, expresses quite a menschy view of them. and we don’t disagree too much about them.
Sat: how old are you? I find it hard to believe that there’s any real generational “divide” between you, me and BigSteve.
I don’t know if it has to be described as a “divide” but there are definite dynamics that exist between generations of populations for innumerable reasons; economic, political, cultural and the effects of mass marketing. I don’t think this fact means people have to take it personally though. Being raised in different eras in history, especially in a history as fast-moving and large as the U.S. in the twentieth century, affects our perceptions and the shape of our character (I can see the Freshman in the back of the class nodding off already).
Being around at the explosion of the music business that happened on the 60’s and 70’s is going to give one generation different possibilities that a generation growing up today is no longer going to have. Being a first generation to be marketed to since birth has another profound effect.
Undoubtedly we’re swimming in different rivers in all sorts of ways, but I’m more interested in understanding than judging people.
I would love to see saturn’s statistical comparison of the narcissism levels of every generation from the beginning of history until today. That data would be fascinating.
Anyway my portrayal of a condescending, narcissistic geezer was just an Andy Kaufmanesque prank, which I see worked perfectly (i.e., it left everyone scratching their heads and wondering what the point of it was).
And yeah seriously I had never really thought of saturn as a young’un before.
So, you guys DON’T like The White Stripes, is that what you’re saying?
It’s just that I keep dozing off…
good one BigSteve.
i’m a generation x’er. 41 now. not that that’s young, but it must be obvious by now, especially to you and hvb, that we don’t share the same generational views. but, in true baby boomer fashion, you were too self-absorbed to notice, i suppose.
of course, my whole point was that there IS no measuring stick for any of these parameters.
but dude, you embody a baby boomer mindset so thoroughly, that you can’t even see your way past it. most of you can’t. my generation is a mystery to you. we always will be. usually, you come up with slap dash assessments of us like the ones you spouted above, which show no attempt to see your own generation’s values as anything but universals, despite their arbitrariness. and there are psyche journals filled with articles offering hypotheses about why.
dbus, it’s pretty judgmental of you to suggest that some of us aren’t on here to understand people, but judge them. criminey, dude, we exercise our judgement (about each other, yes) all the time on here. i’ve been judged, you’ve been judged, and we’ve dealt out our share of judgement, too. come down off the high horse.
back to the white stripes: we’ve been down this road so many times that i can’t believe this thread has gone on the way it has. the rth ws haters usually betray their biases with their criticisms of this band. this thread is no exception. someday, there will be psyche journals filled with articles offering hypotheses as to why.
Sat, I luv ya, but if there’s anybody who sounds like a member of a “self-absorbed” generation, it’s you. What kind of pop psychology nonsense are you ranting about, dude? You’re deeper than this nonsense would suggest… aren’t you?
(snip)
but dude, you embody a baby boomer mindset so thoroughly, that you can’t even see your way past it. most of you can’t. my generation is a mystery to you. we always will be. usually, you come up with slap dash assessments of us like the ones you spouted above, which show no attempt to see your own generation’s values as anything but universals, despite their arbitrariness.
… I mean, really, surely you must see the pot-calling-the-kettle-black thing here, right? Or are you pulling one of those Bittman moves here, going all super-crazy, Kaufman-clever on us and shit?
Oh, and saturn, why so petulant today, Susie? It’s becoming apparent that it is you, laddie, & not I, who has downed a few too many Sprites & Ho-Hos in too short a time. Even your keel, boy. You kids! Why, back in my day…
As far as my failed little prank goes: I said I was sorry, didn’t I! The references to THAT & whether I’m telling the truth about it or not are getting almost as stale as all this “generational” palaver.
And, as they say on Jerry Springer, “YOU don’ know ME!”
I don’t want to have to throw a chair at any of you, but I swear to The Sweet Father in Hell, I will if the recriminations don’t cease.
BB: if you gon’ dish it out, you gotsta *take* it, my man. Just chee-ill… until the nex’ epiSODE.
hmmm…this is becoming rather muddled.
going back to square one, i find most dismissals of the WS to be incredibly baby boomerish…it’s like there’s something about their music that is too close, yet too irreverent of, the music of their generation. it seems to touch a nerve.
However, in a post that barely even hinted at the thought (the one that started with “as long as the baby boomers are calling the shots…”, i clearly touched a nerve with BigSteve, who went all sensitive on us, got all up in arms about it, and in *true baby boomer fashion* couldn’t have done a better job of dismissing WS on generational grounds.
no pop psyche here – the journals i was alluding to are scholarly ones – i’m just bringing up a phenomenon that’s widely held to be true. i had no idea that doing so would prompt its manifestation right here on RTH, but here we are, aren’t we?
but it’s really not a big deal. but i will continue to call ’em like i see ’em.
dbus said it right when he wrote that “Being around at the explosion of the music business that happened on the 60’s and 70’s is going to give one generation different possibilities that a generation growing up today is no longer going to have.”
we could refine that to read in more specific terms, but i’m sure that doing so would tick people off, so i won’t bother. and besides, that’s pretty much the framework as it’s currently set up to run, isn’t it?
and simply pointing it out, without really even complaining about it (and i wasn’t complaining, as i was made to explain), is usually enough to touch a baby boomer’s nerve. BigSteve’s reaction, “get over it,” is a pretty typical one.
heaven forbid I point it out. suddenly, in the eyes of baby boomers, i’m not making an observation of them, i’m jealous! because, once again, they tend to see their own generation’s cultural values as universal rather than subjective and arbitrary.
anyone who doesn’t aspire to the same things is in denial. anyone who offers a critique of them is jealous.
i’m not making this shit up. that’s the way they are.
and BigSteve couldn’t have done a better job of demonstrating that for me.
and bobby b, hvb is right. just chill.
Keep in mind that White Stripes have outlasted most of their contemporaries (Strokes, Vines)and still remain a step ahead of their followers (Black Keys).
Even though I think Jack White is currently a better PR guy than songwriter, I wouldn’t bet against him doing something that I’d totally dig.
As far as being remembered in history: as the classic rock canon opens up, there will surely be a place for them; and also recordings of their live shows will be traded with great enthusiasm.
I’m chillin’ like Dylan, my man(I didn’t say which one; could be Bob OR Jakob.Or it could be Dylan Thomas). What is the cut-off point for being a Boomer as opposed to a Gen-Xer, anyway? At 45, I’m still not sure where I fall on the generational scale. I’ve always felt I was part of that nameless, nether-gen that fell in between; too young for a Boomer, too old to be a Gen-Xer. I never really felt that much of a fealty to either. I like old stuff (much of it WAY older than the 60s guys that the likes of Rolling Stone would have us believe created the only truly meaningful popular music), & I still keep an ear cocked for anything new that catches my attention & doesn’t seem to have been formulated in some corporate laboratory. Am I an anomaly, or are there others of you out there who feel your tastes aren’t governed by your birth date?
“dude, we exercise our judgement (about each other, yes) all the time on here. i’ve been judged, you’ve been judged, and we’ve dealt out our share of judgement, too. come down off the high horse.”
Sorry if suggesting there might be more value in engaging people to explain their opinions rather than in judging them as crybabies and narcissists makes me sound elitist. I did say I “try” not resort to that kind behavior, I may not always succeed.
Of course all bets are off when it comes to poking sticks at “The Mod” but he’s always so handy as a stand-in for “The Man”.
“Am I an anomaly, or are there others of you out there who feel your tastes aren’t governed by your birth date?”
I think I was so reverent to my elders that I absorbed their respect for the music they grew up with. I started as a young kid listening to all sorts of big band stuff that made my parents all nostalgic for roller skating in the park in the 1940’s.
I’m still surprised that so few of my contemporaries (I’m 43) have much affection for 50’s rock and roll. Much of that stuff was less than twenty years old when I first heard it (hooray AMERICAN GRAFFITI soundtrack!), it didn’t seem like that much of a generational stretch to me.
White Stripes will = T-Rex. Without pointing the finger at one fogey or another or getting into all this psychoanalysis, can you dig it?
I’m a little skeptical about those psych journals. I’ve seen how they tend to be rather clueless about the millenials, just as they were with my gen x; I wouldn’t trust their take on the baby boomers.
White Stripes will = T-Rex
Remind me again how being remembered as well as T-Rex is a bad thing? I can’t recall meeting too many rock fans who didn’t have a special place in their heart for them. Devendra Banhart stole half of his act from the acoustic Tyrannosaurus Rex LPs and coincidentally just recently I met a very smart and hip twenty-year old who was all about her T-Rex t-shirt. From DJing weddings, I know that “Bang A Gong” is pretty much a guaranteed cross-generational dance floor filler.
bobby, gen x’ers (or the ‘baby bust’ generation as it was also labeled right after the baby boom died out in the mid 60s) are traditionally defined as born after ’64. the 1991 fictional book of the same title (Gen. X, tales of an accelerated culture) about “twentysomething” kids who felt disenfranchised revived the term and brought it to pop culture.
to say you don’t feel identifiable with any generation makes you more gen. x than the kids younger than us who came to their identities after the term’s emergence on the pop culture scene, who sought to somehow embody it by acting it out. it’s one of the many conceptual traps of the label.
people in our age bracket have been labeled “reactive” and materialistic by baby boomers in high level, supposedly authoritative studies done by early baby boomers, even before we were able to function as adults.
we’re the first generation to have been negated, almost purged out of popular culture before we ever entered it. our presence in the popular culture arena occurred later than it does for most generations, and even then, as the name we were given suggests, we became present only as an absence.
these are not complaints, mind you, just observations. but try telling that to a baby boomer.
it’s not necessary to think that one’s tastes are governed by one’s birth date. but one’s overall outlook on things may be determined by the years when one was alive, as well as the geographical location, economic strata, religion, etc.. i’m not arguing that one’s generation says everything about what they listen to. in a lot of ways, hvb is a wildcard in all this, ’cause he grew up somewheres else. hvb, the squeeze and i were at a wedding in puerto rico last fall with all sorts of people from your neck of the world, and MAN, what a respectful, open minded bunch they were (no sarcasm).
dr. john, we’re all suspicious of scholarly journals. we have to be. we’re scholars. but the notion of baby boomer narcissism / absolutism is a widely explored one. of course, it’s critiqued, too. i know less about it than i’d like to, but it’s been a topic of conversation ’round the water cooler where i teach for years, and one of our world history teachers knows an awful lot about this stuff. he’s been schooling me for a long time. and he’s a baby boomer. his panties just don’t get bunched up so easily when his generation is called out for its self-absorption.
thanks, dbus, for your standup explanation. sorry i took your head off.
and i agree. there’s nothing wrong with being remembered in a way that’s similar to how t-rex is remembered. i think the stripes will go a little further than that, actually. but in general, i buy it as a good parallel.
and dbus, i want you to know that i DO value your “suggesting there might be more value in engaging people to explain their opinions rather than in judging them as crybabies and narcissists.”
you’re right.
BigSteve, I apologize if it bothered you. As we’ve acknowledged before, we don’t always connect so well on what you’ve called “the pro wrestling” aspect of RTH. forgive my bombast.
it was NOT an andy kauffmanesque attempt at humor, but it WAS done with confidence that comes from years of posting here, thinking that you can take as much as you dish out. again, sorry if i bummed you out.
When I 1st heard that ‘I Want to Be Your Lover’ song, I could’ve sworn it WAS some old T-Rex tune I’d somehow missed hearing. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
hdbakshi, If you’re still out there, I just got back from the ACL site, & you can at least watch Roky and the boys do “You’re Gonna Miss Me” on there. Also, I dunno about where you live, but where I am those PBS music shows tend to be rebroadcast to the point of the ridiculous. Check your local listings.
dbusk, I know of what you speak. I never got why most of our contemporaries can’t seem to get into a good 50s rock & roll tune w/ the same passion they show for music from the 60s and beyond. Sometimes I do believe that it IS a case of drinking the Rolling Stone cool-aid concerning ‘relevance’ & ‘serious music’, which is a decidedly boomer-ish concept. I say this in consideration of the age bracket most RS crit big-wigs, & indeed, most ‘big time’ rock critics in general, fall into: The 1st wave of baby boomers.
saturn, OK, well put. The thing about the whole GenX label I always found kind of amusing was that the same term was used as the title of a 1960s British book about mods. That’s where Mr. Idol’s crew pinched their band name from in the 70s.
I for one see credibility in Sat’s hypothesis but is this really a surprising perspective to people here? Theses ideas have been circulating for decades. Its an issue I think about when older folks sneer at hip-hop and say, “That’s not music!” (btw, when artistic endeavor is denied validity as “art”, one’s interest should always pique).
There was a Canadian film a few years back called THE BARBARIAN INVASIONS where the lead character is a professor who stands in as a mouthpiece for the film’s director, a sixty-ish Dents Arcand. The professor, a sixties counter-cultural type, lectures the kids on how self-absorbed and spoiled they are and champions his own generations triumphs against “The Man”. Sure enough all the young characters are presented as complete narcissistic creeps. An idea lost on the character and the director is that these kids are their children and students. How can the professor/director absolve themselves of any role, was the younger generation hatched from eggs?
If you think the Whites Stripes don’t rock, maybe the older generation shouldn’t have programmed the radio to play Bryan Adams like he was Elvis.
BigSteve, I’m shocked you’re 55. I don’t know if I’ve met anyone of your age with as wide an appreciation of music as you have. You shouldn’t think your generation’s lameness reflects on you. I sure don’t let my generation’s infatuation with pinkish Harvard grad talk show hosts who act like fourteen year old boys reflect anything about my self.
I forgot to add in the post above that, yes I was aware of the book YOU spoke of, & that’s part of the reason for my amusement w/the usage of that particular appellation; as it was used to label an earlier generation a good twenty-odd years before.
1964, eh? Then I suppose my being born in September of ’63 WOULD kind of put me right on the fault line.
Just took a gander over at Conan’s Wikipedia entry and geez, it sounds like a decade-and-a-half of pain to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conan_o%27brian
Cementing my feelings about him are stories of Boss worship and mention of the other Final Show special musical act that must be a ticklish favorite of Mr. O.B. Is anyone around here willing to defend John Mayer? Any takers? Bueller?
Arnold Schwarzenegger’s Conan would be a wittier host.
Sorry, saturn, but I can’t have a serious conversation about the various generation gaps we live among with someone who would claim “your generation is the most narcissistic generation history has ever seen.”
BigSteve,
given the way mass media’s outlets like tv and cinema function as mirroring devices, and given the bb’s generation’s dominance of those outlets, one can easily make a case for your generation’s exceptional narcissism.
so don’t be so dismissive. i take you seriously, even when i’m jabbing at you. otherwise i wouldn’t have bothered to post at such length. and yeah, i was pretty surprised to hear that you’re 55, even after having met you. dbus is right, you’ve got amazingly varied tastes, and i’ve learned alot from you.
the apology was sincere, and as I and dbus have both suggested, the viewpoint I’m espousing is not especially radical. in fact it’s widely held.
so, at the risk of being the pot and the kettle at the same time, it’s your turn to “get over it,” my friend.
saturn, my brief recent comment was written before I’d read your recent lengthy one. Its appearance afterwards made it look like a response, but it wasn’t. I think were were typing at the same time.
What I find unserious is the charge that this pattern you claim to see is judged against the entire range of history, when in fact this interpretation of ‘generations’ and pop culture goes back at most a hundred years.
Again, my problem with the White Stripes is not that they’ll never be as good as [fill in boomer icon here]. It would indeed be narcissistic to think one’s own generation was the greatest ever and nothing that came later would surpass its achievements. But that is not what I believe.
My problem with the White Stripes is that it’s the same old thing, gussied up with eye-catching but non-musical elements. As Ezra Pound said, MAKE IT NEW.
And be honest, if Meg’s boobs were not members of the band, we wouldn’t even know who the White Stripes were, and we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.
[A footnote … this weekend I bought a 4-CD compilation by Vern Gosdin, a country singer I admire a lot. The song that came on while I was typing was I’m a Chip Off the Chip Off the Old Block, in which he brags of singing like Hank and George and Merle. It struck me how different his take on tradition and novelty was. And then I remembered that Gosdin is retired and the Gen X’ers have taken over country music.]
last things first: there are plenty of bands out there with hot chicks in ’em, and if i don’t like their tunes, i don’t like their tunes. i saw the white stripes first when i did their sound at the khyber pass. when they unloaded their gear i was like ‘grumble grumble…another band with a good lookin’ girl…” because i had done sound for so many cute girl bands who were no good. but the Stripes put on a good show. honestly. capiche?
while i don’t agree with you entirely that they are “the same old thing” my contention all along is that even if they were, dismissing the Stripes because of their lack of innovation is to rely on an arbitrary value judgement. your citation of Ezra Pound reveals your 20th century modernist bias. not every era thinks that it’s only art if it’s “new” or “original.” in fact, artistic production nowadays is returning to enriched relation to the past, a dialogue with it that incorporates it, rather than trying to make a break with the past. so the Stripes are less retardataire than you might think. and alot of people don’t care about their lack of innovation. i just like their tunes. as i said, jack likes to try to write like his heroes.
where you write that “this interpretation of generations in pop culture” only goes back at most a hundred years, you’re dead wrong. vasari’s “lives of the artist’s,” the renaissance equivalent of a best seller, divided the artistic production of the 250 years leading up to his own time into “etas” or generations, and expressed an acute and nuanced generational awareness, delineating the stylistic characteristics of each, and making them to the personalities of individual artists. but either way, if it goes back a hundred years or 500 years, that doesn’t preclude the possibility of the boomers being the most narcissistic. the invention of talking generationally in the specific way we’ve been doing in this thread is a boomer invention, one that puts them, once again, at the center of culture, as the inheritors of modernity!
I like Vern Gosdin too, btw! but i only have “super hits.” are you talkin’ about “40 years of the Voice”? is it worth it?
Jack’s a helluva good guitarist, too, so the assertion that the attraction to the band rests entirely on cosmetic components in general, & Meg’s rack in particular, is completely missing what fans such as saturn & myself like about the band; the music!
Personally, I could care less if the band consisted of Jack & another dude on drums, & they just wore flannel shirts & jeans. If the tunes were the same, the guitar riffs as memorable, & the performances as, in general (To me,the Conan debacle was an anomaly, having seen the band several times since 1999, or so.), impassioned, I’d still be a fan.
Having said that, I do appreciate the band’s visual presentation, as pop music does, and always has, incorporated ‘a look’ as part of the package. I just don’t believe that’s ALL this group brings to the table. If it was, I most likely WOULDN’T be a fan, because I’ve never been into bands that were ONLY about the presentation, which I kinda feel like I’m being indirectly accused of by BigSteve’s comments (well, not JUST me, but anyone who is a fan). It’s as simple as that.
I think Jack White is a more credible Lenny Kravitz – and I don’t mean that as a slag on either.
Longterm, Jack will do more as a producer than as a musician.
Just a few comments, saturn, because I think we’re boring everybody else.
I’m aware of the pitfalls of over-valuing novelty. But Pound’s dictum did not mean that the past should be discarded. Read their work, and you’ll see it’s a good example of “artistic production returning to an enriched relation to the past.” My problem with the Stripes is that I don’t hear any enriching going on (except in bank accounts). We disagree on that, and that’s fine.
I haven’t read Vasari’s book, but it’s not about pop culture. I really don’t want to, and I’m sure no one else here wants us to, get into an historical discussion of high culture vs. low/pop culture. But I very much doubt that people making claims about boomer narcissism are judging them against eras before 1900.
I can’t help but ask, do you really think people my age didn’t think that our parents had ruled the world for quite long enough and that they had an over-inflated view of their own greatness?
On to something we agree about. I realized the other day in reviewing the holes in my collection that there was very little Vern Gosdin left. I saw that 40 Years of the Voice thing, and, after making sure they weren’t re-recordings (they’re not), I took the leap.
The weird thing is that, if you want to buy downloads, you can get vols 2-4 at Amazon ($8.99 each), but you have to get vol 1 from CD Baby ($12.99), why I don’t know.
Super Hits I believe has cool stuff like I Can Tell by the Way You Dance and, my favorite, If You’re Gonna Do Me Wrong Do It Right. I actually still have that too. But he had a couple of perfect albums in the late 80s — Chiseled in Stone and Alone — that I didn’t have.
The compilation is terrific, the only caveat being that it’s not chronological. Since I bought downloads, I don’t know the provenance of a lot of the tracks. I gather from empirical evidence that some of them go back as far as the Gosdin Brothers era. I haven’t heard anything bad on them yet — lots of good gospel — but I may still have to go back and get Chiseled in Stone and Alone.
Ezra Pound’s slogan may have triggered modernism, but by the late sixties, Andy Warhol questioned the idea of artistic novelty. So I’m not sure innovation is a prime expectation of the baby boomers.
For me, the White Stripes should be judged not by the standards of innovation, but by the artsitic choices they make. I think that new record is pretty hot, but I’m turned off by Jack White’s processed cheese-whiz solos and those mystic bagpipe marches up the misty moor epic tunes.
And dbuskirk, don’t put all the blame on the bad old guy radio programmers. Many promising bands let themselves be seduced by major lables and then were destroyed, leaving no opposition to Bryan Adams.
This story has become tiresome! Now is the time in The RTH when we dance!
love TWS, thought that this was just OK. I am going to steal this arrangement though and play this song at my next gig