We sometimes joke about the fact that few Townswomen comment in the Halls of Rock – in fact, I can’t tell you how long it’s been since the last time we’ve had a comment from a woman – but it hurts. I don’t know about you, but I worked hard to get this passionate, witty, and articulate about the the music I love – and here I am, still stuck in the same wrong side of the party, along with Mohammed, Jugdish, Sidney, and Clayton.
If this were Literature Town Hall or Film Town Hall I’d bet we’d hear from almost as many men as women. Why not Rock Town Hall? I see women at concerts. I know women buy records. There are even women who play in bands. Wasn’t it the Year of Women in Rock just a few years ago? Women were talking rock shit in that special issue of Rolling Stone, but it seems they’ve been quiet ever since.
I can’t be sure that every Townsperson who does post here on a regular basis is a dude, but I’m pretty sure that’s the case. It’s easy to think that the problem is with us, but I want to look at this from another perspective: Are women capable of talking rock shit?
A lot of folks don’t get what goes on here – and that’s cool. A lot of knowledgeable rock fans (ie, guys) have given me all sorts of reasons why they are happy to talk rock shit with me in person but not here, on the public record. I wish it were otherwise, but I’ll accept their excuses. But only one of the knowlegeable women rockers I know has ever given me any reason why she only rarely comments here. I’ve gotta wonder if women are even capable of talking rock shit.
Hey ladies, show me I’m out of my mind for even raising this question. I know you’re out there, if only looking over your man’s shoulder. Grab the mouse, ready your fingertips at the keyboard, and tell me what’s holding you back. You can’t tell me you don’t harbor some odd perspective on rock that may not be received as openly in a venue populated by more reasonable, socially adjusted people, can you? This is why we’re here. Deep down, are you simply more adjusted than men? We’re a pretty polite and open-minded bunch, no? Despite some occasional sophomoric references to the contrary, is your silence a statement that this is a particularly sexist rock music discussion blog? Or are you just not capable of talking rock shit?
At the risk of losing what little goodwill I’ve built up as Moderator of Rock Town Hall, I am compelled to ask this particularly poorly phrased question. I hope you will read between the lines and see the welcoming, inviting nature of my question. I hope you will make up for lost time, let your freak flag fly, and share some of the rock shit that’s been stored up inside you, even if it means telling us what we don’t want to hear.
I look forward to your comments.
The challenge I’ve thrown down still stands. Bring it on!
Are townsmen supposed to weigh in here with theories as to the lack of townswomen?
They could do so, Oats, certainly! Likewise, they could feel free to simply start talking rock shit along with us. They could even log on to simply give me, in particular, shit for daring to ask this question. I’m all ears, and you know this is a friendly endeavor and my confrontational tone is in jest.
I’m sorry – I was so focused on the repressed thoughts of Townswomen that I didn’t catch your question as you intended it, Oats. Townsmen are free to comment as they see fit. My question directly addresses are women readers, but all the young dudes can say how they feel about this important issue. Thanks.
My woman is close to as passionate about music as I but gets a bit put-out if I go on too long about something rockish. Especially if I’m yakking about the song/band that is currently playing.
She would rather feel and enjoy the music than discuss and intellectualize it. And I can empathize with that.
I’ve got empathy for my woman as well, Sammy. She’s right on board with what you report your woman feeling, so for this thread I’m turning the music OFF. This is not the time or place for feeling and enjoying the music. Let’s talk some rock shit, shall we?
Yeah, I agree with Sammy. In my experience, women music fans aren’t terribly interested in donning the lab coat.
I’m aware that women typically don’t don the lab coat for the big beat. I am curious to know why, why they’re so better adjusted; however, the question I have raised centers on capability. And honestly, as much as I’m poking fun at all this, I have to wonder how much a key contributing factor to women not feeling accepted in rock has to do with their reluctance or incapability of talking rock shit. Whether it’s right or wrong is another matter, but at the same time, I do think there would be something like a 60-40 men:women ratio of participants if this were Lit Town Hall or Film Town Hall, which makes me think that women are not incapable of talking such shit. My underlying hope in raising this inflammatory issue is that bringing it to light will encourage women rock fans who have spent any time thinking about things like rock eyewear or holstering or whatever will realize that Rock Town Hall does not have to be a Boys’ Club.
Here’s a theory, and I grant in advance that it’s based on stereotypes.
Women thrive in the world of emotion, and they excel at talking about their feelings.
Imagine the consequences in a forum like this if someone tried to turn the discussion towards the way a certain song made him or her feel. I mean we talk about that sometimes, but mostly we talk about the external stuff — instrumentation, stylistic reference points, vocal phrasing, etc.
Again this is a stereotype, but most guys avoid talking about their feelings. And when it comes to music we’re gearheads.
As President Obama might say, this is all maybe above my pay grade. I will say that it’s possible that the discourse around here is closer to Sports Town Hall than Lit or Film. At the same time, I can imagine threads that a theoretical woman could have contributed to — such as Velvet Intervention — but them’s the brakes.
I wonder if E. Pluribus will chime in on this thread. He seems to know a lot about what women want.
Maybe it’s the primarily ’60s-’70s rock shit-talkery in particular that widens the gender gap? Don’t get me wrong, I love all that too, but let’s be honest: the place needs some post-“Hot Legs” Rod Stewart video lab sessions. Break out the “Love Touch” video, that’ll change everything.
Also, maybe crack a window in this place.
I appreciate the feedback to date, dudes, but I still need evidence that the ladies can hack it. We’ve expressed more emotions than we’re given credit for in these Halls. We’ve got the music turned OFF, the stones are red hot, I’ve got a bowl of white cedar ready to light and pass around, and I’m holding out the talking stick for the next Townsperson ready to share. No “moon-time” limitations around here. Let’s talk some rock shit.
Oats said:
I wonder if E. Pluribus will chime in on this thread. He seems to know a lot about what women want.
I say:
ZING!
Signs of feminine rock nerd life are out there. Mad props to Townsman Hrrundivbakshi for pointing me toward The Song in My Head Today (http://thesonginmyheadtoday.blogspot.com/). I’ve added the blog to our RTH Links. Let’s hope we get some crossover and breathe some new energy into these hallowed halls.
I’m sure they COULD if they wanted too.
I’m sure they could also rise to level of president of the AV club, or create a wizard character that has over 200 charisma hit points or some shit if they set their mind to it. Is that what you really want?
cdm, what I most want is for women to know that they can do what we do here, talking rock shit and adding to the fringes of Rock Understanding, if they so desire. I fear that the rock media and other rock discussion blogs have scared such women off from these aspirations, which come so naturally to a lot of rock dudes.
Maybe we should open a thread concerning “Shoes in Rock”.
Bobby, I’m not kidding: Sammy and I have been working behind the scenes for over a year on a closely related topic. We may have to quicken the pace and release our findings in the coming weeks.
It’s a scientific fact; the ladies LOVE all things shoe-related. And it’s got nothing to do with feelings, emotions, & all that cack. When it comes to shoes, they become the gear-heads.
Women do things like clean / tidy, prepare for things, think about the future, nurture, get enough sleep, exersise…leaves less time for nerdier activities
It’s not, I think, that the discourse on RTH is less like literature than, say, sports.
Rather, it is like literature: if Hemingway were discussed 95% of the time.
THAT’S a killer analysis, Dr. J! Seriously.
Well, I hate to disillusion you fellas, but I don’t like shoes. And when we women talk rock shit, it IS about feelings. I’m just warning you, for me rock criticism is largely about whether a song makes me want to sleep with the lead singer. After all, what else is rock music about?
I have to say, I’m intrigued to see sammymaudlin and bobbybittman on here — I’ve been looking for you guys for years, ever since the Johnny LaRue Show went belly-up.
Hollyh — I know I speak for Mr. Mod when I say: PLEASE don’t go anywhere. I can’t tell you how many times we ask questions that really *need* an estrogen-infused perspective. Please — I’m beggin’ you — interrupt this sausage-fest as often as you wish to give us some truth!
Thanks for joining us —
HVB
Hey Hollyh! Thanks for taking us up on our pathetic invitation, and thanks for telling us how you like to talk rock shit. One of the things a few of us try to do here is get our heavily guy readership to open up and tell us how rock ‘n roll makes them feel – and whether we secretly want to sleep with the lead singer. We allow ourselves our share of gear, lists, and rock arcana, but I really don’t think our underlying reasons for talking rock shit are that different. We’ve got to keep on pushing to get some guys around here to tell us how they feel about a song or even a piece of gear, but push we will. It’s my hope that one day a few women will do their part to push and pull some of the more uptight rock nerds around here into talking rock shit in a way that tells us something about each other. I can stick my nose in a referenece book if I just want to gather facts, but finding out what makes someone around here tick through the power and fun of talking rock shit is what it’s all about.
I’m not sure which I’m enjoying less: that photo of feet or the photo of
Zoot’s bare asses.
Either way, logging into RTH has not been pretty lately.
HAHA!!! It worked! Hey, hollyh, I was hoping there would be a female reader out there who would take the bait of my “shoes” comments & post something, if even it was an attack on my lack of knowledge concerning what women care about.
But you bypassed that, and went straight to the meat of the matter, so to speak. Well played; yet it’d be nice if you could expand on your thoughts/feelings, unless that’s ALL you’ve got to say on the subject.
Oh, and while we’re sharing, Chrissie Hynde & Neko Case’s VOICES have always given me impure thoughts about the two singers. Does that count?
And by the way, honey, it was ‘The Sammy Maudlin Show’. I don’t know this LaRue character you speak of. Maybe William B. Williams might know him.
Oh, and when you say you “don’t like shoes”, do you mean you prefer to be barefoot all the time (& I DIDN’T say “and pregnant”), or that you actually are just not into obsessing about footwear? I’m just curious, because even though I WAS using it to bait women into posting, you’ve got to admit that there are an awful lot of your sisters who can go on as much about peep-toe pumps, or whatever, as many guys can go on about the type of microphone used to record the hand claps on, I dunno, “Love Stinks”, by The J. Geils Band. And it’s not like I haven’t ever been privy to women’s conversations, when there were way more women in the room than men.
Bobbybittman claimed:
And it’s not like I haven’t ever been privy to women’s conversations, when there were way more women in the room than men.
I respond:
I call bullshit!
hrrundivbakshi, Go ahead and call it, but you’d be DEAD WRONG. And this time I’m being totally serious. I mean, whaddaya want, names and addresses? The times I’m talking about were all over 15 years ago, when I did have a certain circle of female friends who were very comfortable saying exactly what was on their minds in front of me. There were plenty of times I wished they weren’t so comfortable with it, but there ya go.
I didn’t spend most of my young adult life living in houses full of dudes. Most of the time I was either living in a city w/a girlfriend or on my own. I had guy friends AND gal friends, & hung out w/both equally (& sometimes even together at the same time, if ya can wrap your psyche around that).
Why would my statement be so hard for you to believe, anyway? For all the joking I was doing about shoe fetishes & stuff, I don’t personally find women all THAT mystifying. MOST of the perceived differences mainly have to do with socialization, anyway, & not some mystical “otherness”. What’s left is mostly biology, being as the primary imperative of the species is to procreate. Even w/that, there aren’t any iron-clad, etched in stone rules. The biggest stumbling block in this whole matter, from what I see, is the pervasiveness of the herd mentality, & how it forces people (or rather people force themselves) into roles that they THINK they are required to take on, all because it’s too scary out there to just be who you REALLY are. And I don’t remove myself from that. Freedom OF choice is what we’ve got. Freedom FROM choice is what we want. Devo was right!
So, call bullshit all you want, but I know what went on in my own life back then, as well as I know what a completely opposite lifestyle I’m leading now, as a relative hermit w/an anxiety disorder, living in a frigging suburb I never expected or wanted to see again. OR IS THAT BULLSHIT, TOO!
I am a lot of things, both good & bad, but a liar isn’t one of them.
Hey, Bittman — put down the giant novelty phone and come sit next to William B. I was joking, my man!
It sure didn’t come off that way, MY MAN!
In Fact, I’m calling BULLSHIT on your explanation of calling what I posted bullshit, as a joke.
And by the way, it’s not a novelty phone. It’s a giant fake poo.
No, I thought your assertion that you had actually spent time in rooms where there were way more women than men was a joke. Not because I didn’t believe you, but because I had a hard time believing anybody could claim such a thing as a rhetorical defense. So I responded with something equally ridiculous. It was a joke. Now calm down — you’re starting to act more like Skip than Bobby.
Hey, Skip’s a good kid! He just needs the right vehicle for his talents, OK?
Alright,fair enough, but why would that claim seem so ridiculous as a defense in light of the general gist of the conversation? I’m a little slow, so could ya humor me this one time, & explain, ‘cuz I’m still not gettin’ya?
Mr. Mod,
Are you still wondering why women don’t hang out here?
Respectfully,
Oats
Oats, What? Women don’t argue about clarifying points in conversations?
Oats,
Word.
Moddy, WORD? REALLY? So, what are you all Mr. Hip Hop, 1987, suddenly? Got yr track suit, thick gold rope chain, & Adidas w/out laces on? Chillin’ to some Big Daddy Kane & Schooly-D, witcha homeboys ‘n flygirls? WHASSUP!?!
Uh, I’m having trouble picturing it.
Hello? Guys? Holly? Where’d everybody go? Awww, c’mon. Come Back! I’ll play nice, I promise!…(Geez, it’s kinda spooky in here when you’re all alone…And what’s that smell? alexmagic was right; it’s rank in here! Maybe it’s just the smell of a dead thread…& old gym socks.)