Recently, in a completely unrelated thread, a Townsman thought he could “get me” regarding my longstanding dismissal of that the music on Love‘s supposed masterpiece Forever Changes as “bullfighting music.” I guess some wounds take longer than others to heal.
As 2010 winds down, feel free to use this space to air any ongoing, unhealed beefs you may have with me that you feel may still need to be addressed, be it my dismissal of Forever Changes, why we moved Rock Town Hall from our private Yahoo Groups list to this blog format, how I can possibly prefer George Thorogood to ZZ Top, or some other burning question that refuses to cool off no matter how much wisdom and reasoned arguments I have applied to your blistered sense of perspective. I will do my best to answer your questions—once and for all—and, more importantly, to apply a healing balm before we enter the New Year.
The airing of your ongoing, unhealed beefs may even benefit me. Every 5 or 6 years I come to the realization that an opinon I was certain of requires an adjustment. I’m probably due for one of these moments.
Comments for this thread will be closed at the strike of midnight, January 1, 2011.
no beef whatsoever sir.
Is this sort of like The Airing of Grievances for Festivus?
I guess it is.
I, uhhh…wow. I can’t listen to Forever Changes, either. I remember buying it a few years back, ready to really be mind-blown, and I was just bored to tears. Couldn’t even sit through it all in the first listen. Complete crapola to me.
Now, it’s funny you mention this because the other week over on my blog I posted about how I have the exact same feeling for The Beach Boys’ Pet Sounds. I know, blasphemy, right? Whatever. To me that thing always sounded like Muzak at best, and corny as hell. I do like “God Only Knows” and “Wouldn’t it Be Nice” (to a degree), but man, did that album never do anything at all for me.
My wife feels the exact same way about Pet Sounds, konajinx, right down to the two songs she does like. It’s funny you mention that album, because it came up between my wife and I the other night, leading to a piece I’ve got in the works, possibly for release tomorrow or Thursday.
It’s extremely healing – for me, at least – to hear of your disregard for Forever Changes. I make a point of sitting down with that album about every other year to see if I’ve grown enough as a human being to appreciate it in the slightest way. So far, no dice! Some day, maybe, I’ll organize a live listening session, inviting the likes of Forever Changes lovers like my man geo to witness my lack of enjoyment while listening to that album. I think the event could draw a big crowd.
Hey, Mod — what’s your feeling about the album I believe to be the TRUE American psych masterpiece, “12 Dreams Of Dr. Sardonicus” by Spirit? If you don’t like *that* one, we may have to get busy!
For the record, I, too, am on Team “Forever Changes” Is Hugely Overrated.
Just to be clear, I understand your beef about “Forever Changes”. It’s the beef about “Pink Flag” that I could never get my head around. I was listening to that last week and trying to undestand why you could be so into the meat and postatoes punk of The Undertones, the Avant Garage of Pere Ubu, and yet have no taste for the artsy punk of Wire’s first album.
I’m glad you brought up that Spirit album. I sensed that might be the reason you rarely respond to direct questions I ask you offline:P
I used to own that album. I still dig “Nature’s Way,” but I remember never getting that into anything else. Isn’t there an infusion of brass work in some of the rocking tracks? I seem to recall a vague Blood Sweat & Tears vibe at points. Now I regret dumping that album, but I do recall it being spun under the influence of all once-helpful substances and still not hitting me. That was always a sign that it was time to trade in a record, so I heeded the sign.
I’ll see if I can’t revisit that album in the coming year. Wasn’t that Randy California guy in that band? For his name alone I should be able to like more than “Nature’s Way.”
I’ll get to the Wire issue later, geo. That’s going to take a lot out of me. Thanks for raising it. If you’ll recall, I do like 154, and I made some progress on the second album last time you put my feet to the fire.
Mr. Mod —
As a MOG refugee, I am a big fan – but as a person who credits old Jefferson Airplane 8-tracks I bought in the cut-out bins for opening my mind, this 2008 post (later reposted) — really left me scratching my head:
“When you really think about it, Jefferson Starship may have produced a stronger quartet of songs than any four songs by Jefferson Airplane”
Geez — I wore out Jefferson Airplane’s “Early Flight” — and that batch of outtakes is more to my liking that any Starship album — although I do have a soft spot for the singles Ride the Tiger and Love to Good.
Have you reconsidered this position?
I am totally comfortable with the characterization of Love Forever Changes as “bullfighting music”–in fact, I think it is a pretty great description. Now, can we also set aside the late, lamented Captain Beefheart as “migraine music”? I think enough time has passed. Whereas anyone coldhearted enough not to enjoy Pet Sounds should check for a pulse.
You know, I gotta confess: I love a lot “arty,” “punky” music, but I don’t get Pink Flag either. I think Elastica did it better by ripping off their riffs and playing them with some swagger.
I’m pretty sure this won’t fully address your concerns, geo, but I’ve been thinking about my beefs with Pink Flag, in particular. First of all, it has no curves, nor even the kind of translucent, inviting skin and blue eyes that may be befitting such a musical build. The album seems to me the musical equivalent of a street urchin or gamine. (No offense to our street urchin and gamine readers.) It sounds desparate, jumpy, not fully formed. At least that’s one way to look at it.
It also seems to me that the band is “too cool for school” to finish any of those songs. Why can’t stuff rhyme? Why can’t rhythms swing? And if they’re trying to create some new form of rock ‘n roll, why can’t they play anything that sounds “out of this world” to my ears? This gets me back to thinking of some street urchin, like the kid who stayed with Baretta for a couple of nights and then ate his cockatoo.
Not recently, funoka, although I continue to dig “Miracles” and the other killer soft-rock tunes from that period over anything but “Volunteers,” which sounds like the Manson family broke into the studio and recorded in place of the Airplane…in a good way.
I find it easy to understand why someone would not like Beefheart – especially if all they’ve heard is Trout Mask Replica (not making assumptions here at RTH; that’s just usually how it’s been with people I know who don’t like the Cap), but I feel it should be easy to understand why someone would not like Pet Sounds as well. As I’ve stated elsewhere, it sounds like just the kind of music Murry Wilson himself would have enjoyed relaxing in his recliner and smoking a pipe while beating the Wilson boys senseless with a belt (OK, that last part I just added now). But you get the drift.
I like bashing certain sacred cows, but not this one. Caroline No is one of the best closing songs on an album ever.
To be clear, I really like Pet Sounds – and love most of it – but I no longer listen to it on a regular basis (or any basis at all for the last couple of years). I do, however, understand how some might find it to sound like Dad’s Easy Listening music.
I trust, konajinx, that you’re not one of those hipsters who reject Pet Sounds but then go apeshit over some 4th-rate version of the same kind of music done by a band like, I don’t know, The United States of America (not that they play that kind of music, from what I remember, but I lump them in with a range of Justifiably Overlooked Bands of the ’60s that became somewhat cool to like after we’d exhausted used bins of all but those bands and Percy Faith Orchestra).
Can I just remind people that this thread is not The Last Chance to Support Mr. Mod’s Poor Taste in Music!
I take issue with Mr. Mod’s fixation with Herb Alpert’s “Rise.” Seriously, I don’t get it.
No, of course not. I own a crapload of the Beach Boys’ discography. That album just never wowed me. I will, say, though, I do prefer the version of “Caroline, No” as done by Brian Wilson on the I Just Wasn’t Mae for These Times soundtrack. His worn-out voice suits the angst of the song much better, I think, and I like the Don Was arrangement on it.
Honestly, I’ve never heard the USA album. Always wanted to, but figured it was as you say it is here.
By the way, can anyone confirm the episode in which the young Puerto Rican boy Baretta takes in eats Fred? The scene is burned in my mind, but I can never find confirmation of it. Maybe I dreamed this and I really should love Pink Flag.
I’m keeping an eye on you…
Mod’s blind spot for country music in general and Hank Williams in particular is worthy of condemnation. It leads to, among other things, a lack of appreciation for Sweet Virginia.
And let me say that Forever Changes as a whole is not ‘bullfighting music.’ The opening track has a mariachi trumpet. That’s it.
I’ve made no bones about my blind spot for country music, but I’ll have you know that the potential for me to have great taste in the genre is demonstrated by my general feeling that Hank Williams is the “Bob Dylan” of country. I can tell that cat’s great, even if I don’t have the patience to sink my teeth into his music. That’s got to count for something.
I think they DO swing. Gotobed does have a weirdly metronomic drum sound, something about his very even eighth note hi-hats, but while I hear that stiffness in there, the band and the tunes swing. Strange is almost swampy, Fragile has a great bounce, and 106 Beats That cranks out an obsessive Krautrock type groove, overlaid with Velvet Underground banging drone keyboards. I also don’t hear the songs as half finished fragments. The last two I mentioned are very short songs that have a completeness of structure with alterations in the number of repeats and beginning to end builds that make them well rendered miniatures rather than sketches. I think that you’re getting overwhelmed by the actual quantity and depth of the songs, trying to absorb the album all at once. Maybe you should try it in little pieces. Listen to the three I mentioned above and see if you can get their appeal as individual songs.
I guess it’s gonna be that time again? Well, it’s usually more interesting than revisiting Forever Changes. I’m still concerned about the lack of “entry points” for me, and how reliable can you be when it comes to swing? I mean, you’re a Beefheart fan! 🙂
Low blow! Beefheart swung in his own mutated way.
Probably the best description I’ve ever read about “Volunteers.” Nice job.
The Percy Faith Orchestra Rocks!
Don’t worry, jeangray, I love Beefheart and his band’s rhythms. I’m just teasing geo. He’s been troubled by my feelings on Wire’s first two albums for the last 10 years.
I love you, Mr. Mod. I can’t listen to Hank, either. Maybe I should start buying stock in RTH.
Gotta love Spirit. “Nature’s Way” was alright for playing at naked hippie parties in the day but to rock the house at clubs we did “Mr. Skin”. We also did “Animal Zoo” for comic relief.
“Much too fat and a little too long” (sung in falsetto)
Good times!
I don’t like your tie.
On that, my friend, we’ll have to agree to disagree!
Sorry to go off topic but I looked up Randy California and learned he died in 1997 in the act of saving his son from being swept out to sea in a riptide. His son survived but he was swallowed by the ocean.
Talk about “Natures Way”.
Ironic deaths could be a good topic but maybe not at Christmas.
I didn’t need that reminder, Steve, but thanks.
Mod, I’m nursing a major grievance: you have never listened to a single song by Townes Van Zandt. I can’t help but feel that such a lapse means that, on some level, you have a disdain for quality lyrics. Not a total rejection of the importance of lyrics, but a disdain for them.
THAT may be the best grievance yet! I’m pretty sure I’ve heard one song by him, but my lapse has nothing to do with my appreciation of quality lyrics but depressed, greasy bearded guys. It’s a horrible thing to say, but his Look alone and the thought of him passed out in his own vomit, or whatever he was into, bums me out. I’ll try to give his quality lyrics a fair shake out of the respect I have for you. Thanks.
First song to listen to: Pancho and Lefty. First album: Live at the Old Quarter is acknowledged as the best, and I by that. But I’m also partial to My Mother The Mountain.
He never wore a beard; however, he was a first rate student whose parents fucked him up with the same radical shock therapy that nearly destroyed Roky Erickson:
Just an obvious quote:
During his youth, Townes was noted as a good student and active in team sports.[16] In grade school, it was recognized that Van Zandt had a genius IQ and his parents began grooming him to become a lawyer or senator.[9] Fearing that his family would move again, he willingly decided to attend Shattuck School in Faribault, Minnesota.[17] He received a score of 1170 when he took the SAT test in January 1962.[18] His family soon moved to Houston, Texas.
Van Zandt was accepted into the University of Colorado at Boulder in 1962. In the spring of his sophomore year, his parents flew to Boulder to bring Townes back to Houston, apparently worried about his binge drinking and episodes of depression.[9] They admitted him to the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston, where he was diagnosed with manic depression. He received three months of insulin shock therapy, which erased much of his long-term memory.[8][9] Afterwards, his mother’s “biggest regret in life was that she had allowed that treatment to occur.”[10] In 1965, he was accepted into the University of Houston’s pre-law program. He soon after attempted to join the Air Force, but was rejected due to a doctor’s diagnosis that called him “an acute manic-depressive who has made minimal adjustments to life.”[9] He finally quit school for good around 1967, having been inspired by his singer-songwriter heroes to pursue a career in playing music.
Thanks for pointing me in a helpful direction. I’ll check him out and wear my shame of thinking he was a greasy, bearded guy.
I really struggle with Wire. Too much Art, not enough Punk.
Btw the new Wire album Red Barked Tree came out this week (the digital version anyway, hard copy next month). The first time I heard it I was unimpressed, but last night I listened to it really loud with headphones, and I thought it was totally awesome. So there’s another album to squeeze onto my 2010 top whatever list. I guess now I have to give the new Costello a second try too. It didn’t fare well the first time.
I’d like to try to put together a short ten-song sampler mix of classic country songs designed to appeal to sophisticated rock fans like you guys here (though I doubt I could reach konajinx). Any interest?
I definitely agree to listen to Pancho and Lefty first. It’s a genius song. Townes’ version is the best (rather than the many covers). The other album I would start with is his self-titled third album. Still, I wouldn’t be surprised if Mod came back with his thumb still down. You have to be in the right mood for TVZ, I think.
Count me in, Hank Fan! I liked most of the stuff you used to post to your old site.
I’d be glad to send you something, Mod. Of course I don’t disagree with Hank Fan; a Townes Van Zandt performance is never that polished, much less perfect. HF may be sending you in the direction of the third album because it’s the one that comes closest to being successful pop country-folk, and it certainly has many fantastic songs, but I’d say it’s not the hardest hitting. More like Townes-lite.
Here’s the thing I’m hoping to get out of TVZ: tunes. I start with music, then I hope the lyrics deliver too. Some musicians who are supposedly great lyricists don’t get to me because I don’t get pulled in by the music. I then wish these people would just write novels so I could get right to the best parts of their songs. Seriously, though, about 5 years ago mwall, BigSteve, and dr john helped me appreciate a Jackson Browne album, so anything’s possible. I’ll give this guy a fair shot. Thanks.
Hankfan,
I wish you luck but you should know that a few years ago, I made the Pre-Rock/Race Record equivilant of the cd you are considering making for the Mod. While I think he appreciated it from an academic point of view, it didn’t really seem to take.
Two nice versions of Pancho and Lefty, one by the purty young Emmylou Harris http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMPydiR4NaQ&feature=related and one by (less purty) Willie Nelson and Bob Dylan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsR0Y-sWk-E
Hey, all that Olde Tyme music is starting to click with me. That CD helped open some doors, cdm. Thanks.
Helped open some doors? I think I saw you fling it from the car window as you were pulling away.
His tunes and lyrics are often monumentally unforgettable, Mod. His performances can be (though aren’t always) ragged, though the raggedness of the performance doesn’t necessarily work against the emotional intensity of the songs. Various attempts to dress up his music with a fuller backing sound had mixed results, although the best of the studio records are pretty consistently excellent, if you ask me.
Mwall, you may be a good person to ask this, and maybe Hankfan can offer input too. I have Live at the Old Quarter and Anthology 1968-79 (which repeats some stuff from the Old Quarter album). The regular albums I have are In Pain, Rear View Mirror, and High Low & In Between. Am I missing anything essential?
Steve, I don’t have that anthology, so I had to check the track list. It’s pretty thoroughly good. Most glaring omission to me is a couple of songs off the Flyin’ Shoes record, although most of the good songs on that record are there. Still, “Dollar Bill Blues” is missing, and that’s one of the greatest of all TVZ songs, and “Brother Flower” is a fine song too. I also notice that the anthology doesn’t cover at all either of the albums At My Window and No Deeper Blue. Both of those records, while they have flaws, have a few classic TVZ numbers. I suppose it depends how we define “essential.” Yes, you’re missing a few classic tunes, but the anthology has pretty solid coverage, I have to say.
I’ve really enjoyed getting to know this site – I’m closing out my first year reading and following RTH. Mr. Mod, I think you do a great job juggling a lot of people’s perspectives in a witty and (generally) considerate way. And I have to admit I’ve been listening to music in a different way since following this site: WWRTHD?
My only request would be to increase our focus and discussion on current music. There is so much good stuff out there that I know a lot of us are listening to and it would be nice to do more discussion/pontificating about it.
ladymiss, it’s been a pleasure having you aboard and contributing! I welcome an increased focus and discussion on current music, and I strongly encourage you and others who more often “get it” to lead that drive. My interest in new music and, maybe more importantly, ability to find new music in which I might be interested, continues to dwindle. It’s probably a function of me being a person who tends to spend more time trying to make sense of what’s set deep in my bones than looking ahead to new discoveries. If I spent more time forcing myself to listen to new records I’d probably come off like cranky KingEd.
I hope what’s been established here is a strong, flexible model for discussion and appreciation of music that can accommodate new interests and points of view. Some people choose their threads to comment on, but there are always enough brave souls to give their 2 cents on almost any subject. Now and then someone else stumbles across us for the first time and takes the plunge. It’s cool. Please feel free to challenge us. Someone’s always likely to try to show they’re more insightful than everyone else, but we’ve been good at knocking each other back to size and providing opportunities for real communication.
OK. I’m on it. Maybe you could post it here if it’s good enough.
Isn’t it time for you to reconsider your opposition to headless guitars?
Maybe if Hendrix comes back to life and plays one. Maybe. I’m only so big a man.
Here it is: A zip file of 15 mp3s from what I think was the golden age of country music (1965-1975):
http://www.box.net/shared/0ilyat5qb0
Apart from your disdain for Lemmy’s mic stand, I’m good.