Remember when a major artist like John Lennon could die and the next day a living artist of large standing, like The Boss or Neil Young, could quickly learn a Lennon song and perform it live, in tribute to the recently deceased artist? Beyonce does.
Even U2 made an effort at paying tribute to Michael Jackson in a recent concert. Skip to about the 1:50 mark to hear Bono launch into a little bit of Townsman BigSteve‘s nomination for the Last Decent Michael Jackson Song.
Maddona, who probably hasn’t sung in public since lord knows when, couldn’t quite muster the energy to belt out a chorus of “Wanna Be Starting Something,” but she brought out a Michael Jackson impersonator to come onstage and dance to the song while it was piped over the PA.
A picture of a young Michael Jackson appeared on stage while Madonna was performing “Holiday,” then the impersonator came on, wearing a sequined jacket, white T-shirt, white glove and white socks in the Jackson manner.
The music then switched to Jackson’s song, “Wanna Be Starting Something,” and the impersonator worked through Jackson’s moves, including the famous moonwalk. The impersonator didn’t sing.
Man, that’s fucking moving!
The funny thing is, prior to the concert, she had the balls to pump up this thing.
“I expected a bit more, but it was tastefully done,” said Jane Gadhia, 47, who said she thought Madonna would choose to sing a Jackson song.
Following the jump, Mr. Mod ponders an Important Question…
We’re a bunch of knowledgeable, open-minded music fans around here. I keep wondering: Was Michael Jackson’s solo music was actually that good? To my ears, he had maybe 4 or 5 strong solo songs, but massive hits like “Billie Jean,” “Beat It,” and “Thriller” sounded cheesy to me when they came out, and time and death haven’t changed my opinion of them. Excluding that handful of solid songs, was solo Michael Jackson – musically – any better than, I don’t know, Pat Benetar?
NOTE: I voted for MJ minus his best 4 adult solo songs in the current poll but only on the strength of the remaining song I kind of like, “Black or White.”
Christ, am I going to have to be the asshole defending Michael Jackson? Just yesterday, I was telling my girlfriend I had reached my capacity for news/coverage of his death.
One of the wonderful developments of the internet is that it can help give the snap judgment a certain intellectual quasi-respectability, if only because the judgment is now in text for everyone to see. So, Michael Jackson’s music is of equal quality to Pat Benetar’s, and it’s up to dicks like me to prove otherwise, even if I suggest that Mr. Mod simply plucked a random, cheesy ‘80s has-been out of his memory bank. In a sense, it’s already too late. The Jackson/Benetar linkage has been established. Granted, there’s been no hard data presented about the musical or cultural similarities. But if you wanted to go there, maybe you should’ve been the one establishing this linkage.
We’ve been here before. Why is Forever Changes bullfighting music? Because that’s how Mr. Mod’s always heard it. Who are any of us to say otherwise?
But I don’t mean to pick on our esteemed moderator, really. He didn’t invent these kinds of snap judgments. (Although, the jury’s still out on E. Pluribus.) Let me tell you a story: Many years ago, I loaned a friend my copy of This Year’s Model. He returned it to me, and told me he thought it sounded like Huey Lewis. How could this be? I wondered? I don’t hear any Tower of Power horns on that album. Or glossy, MTV-ready bar-band rhythms. And I don’t remember Huey Lewis having any songs about sexual frustration and politics (although maybe I should’ve ready American Psycho). But none of that mattered to my friend. He heard the connection, and while he couldn’t provide me any real reasons, he had made his mind up. If we are going to equivocate Michael Jackson and Pat Benetar, I demand that the Elvis Costello/Huey Lewis dichotomy be afforded the exact same weight and consideration.
So, basically I disagree entirely with Mr. Mod’s statement, even if I were to accept it, which I don’t. Michael Jackson’s peak-era solo career is everything it’s shaped up to be, and miles better than Pat Benetar. (Not to mention more popular and innovative and historical and significant, but somehow that stuff doesn’t matter, even in a Winner Rock (okay, Winner Pop) context.) To be a douche about it, you don’t have to like it, but you should maybe accept that you’re just wrong on this. I personally believe everyone – myself included – would benefit from time to time realizing that history has passed them by, and accepting it with a bit of wry Zen. Put it another way, we shoud strive to be more like Ray Davies on Village Green Preservation Society, and less like actual Ray Davies.
To sum up, I want to remind everyone of old RTH threads about Sgt. Pepper vs. Satanic Majesties. If I am remembering correctly, Mr. Mod would occasionally implore us to have some respect the cultural weight and significance of The Beatles and Sgt. Pepper. I make a similar request for MJ and his prime-era solo work. Thank you.
I will go to bat for MJ here. The great thing about his solo career was the fact that he bridged pop, rock, funk, and disco. One might argue that he glossed all of those genres over, but I would argue that this was precisely why he was able to sell 40 galillion albums. He may have “died” after he went into the army and let’s face it, MJ hasn’t been relevent as an artist since about 1995. However, his mark was made and history will remember that mark. I don’t think that Miss Benetar comes close at her very best.
I may chock MJ’s solo success to Quincy Jones, but he crafted some amazing solo cuts. I’ll put that run of albums from Off The Wall to Dangerous up against anybody from the 80s.
TB
Oats wrote:
I admire your passion for this topic, and I greatly enjoy the blasting you’re giving me, Oats. For me to “accept” that I’m “wrong” about this implies that I think I’m “right” about something. Every day of my life I wake up assuming that I’m wrong about something. It doesn’t take truth serum to get me to admit that my comparing Michael Jackson’s 5th-best solo songs and beyond to the 2 best Benetar songs was done mostly to raise this important question. The real question is not whether I’m “right” about thinking that solo Michael Jackson wasn’t better – musically – than Pat Benetar but whether the question itself has some merit. Why doesn’t it? I’m an intelligent, open-minded music listener. It’s not like my disinterest in solo ’80s MJ is because of some gut reaction to Yamaha-DX7s and other ’80s production touches, as I’ve reacted unfavorably to those touches predominating in the music of Prince, The Style Council, et al. There’s a bit of that, but I simply never heard what all the fuss was about. I respect him as a cultural icon and understand the appeal of his dance moves, his style, etc, but fucking “Billie Jean” is a worse song than Loverboy’s “Working for the Weekend.” I’d say the same about “Beat It” and the song “Thriller,” especially those last two – AND THOSE ARE THE THREE BIG SINGLES FROM THE GREATEST-SELLING ALBUM OF ALL TIME!
I don’t mean to be disrespectful to Michael Jackson fans. There’s a very good chance I’m completely “wrong” in not getting his ’80s music, but I’m hopeful that someone will point out the error in my ways. For instance, in the past, whenever I’ve complained about Steely Dan someone’s always ready to point out the band’s “sly sense of humor” and “deceptively complex harmonic structure,” or whatever I’m told I’ve been missing between the dozen songs with melodies and guitar solos that appeal to me. Every now and then I learn from these insights and DO accept that I was “wrong,” but here I am getting “bullfighting music” thrown into my face and being told obvious things like MJ “bridged” musical styles. People always bring up his association with Quincy Jones, as if QJ blessed his music with some deep musical qualities. What deep musical qualities am I missing whenever I hear the juvenile, emotionally bereft “Beat It”? Why shouldn’t I simply reach for a real Van Halen album instead of Michael Jackson’s Thriller? Hell, I’m no fan of Prince, but even though I don’t like a lot of his classic music I DO appreciate how cool it was and how interesting it could be, on an intellectual level if not always an emotional level.
From this point forward I’ll be the Zen Master that Oats desires me to be, but I first had to make myself perfectly clear. Thanks.
Mr. Mod, I applaud your honest response. However, I have trouble swallowing some of these arguments regarding the MJ hits you’ve cited.
“Beat It” is about gangs and gang violence, right? That’s an irrelevant, unworthy song subject? Is it only okay to write about the streets if you’re a public intellectual like Mick Jagger?
“Billie Jean.” Again, comparing it to Loverboy sounds like an arbitrary matter of taste that I can’t even begin to understand. There’s so much going on in this song: The shit about a paternity case, the paranoia and celebrity. It’s eerily prescient, but that’s just backstory, I admit. But he’s writing about real issues, real things, and he’s writing about them like a goddamn adult, probably for the last time in his life. For you to compare it to a cheesy, hacky shitty piece of shit by Loverboy is just confusing me. What if I said “My Perfect Cousin” is dopey and immature and sounds like “Girls Just Wanna Have Fun?” Prove me wrong!
I don’t have much to say about “Thriller” the song, although there have recently been suggestions that maybe it’s about his very real fear of his father. So there’s that. It might be because of his tawdry celebrity, but you can’t say these songs haven’t been inviting new interpretations.
Mod, I’d like to answer your question honestly and openly, but I need you to list the Top Four Michael Jackson Adult Solo Songs that have to come off the board so that we can be sure of what songs remain to compete for spots #5 and #6. Thanks!
Only to respond to Oats’ pointed questions am I asking the following follow-up questions. Trust me, I am doing so with open heart and mind.
Does anyone really get a gang violence vibe out of “Beat It”? I’m trying really hard to block out the backstory of the singer, the West Side Story-style video, and all the other nonsense. To me, the lyrics and music sound like a 12-year-old boy’s idea of writing a tough, rocking song to tell the world that his testicles are beginning to drop. The lyrics and the performance don’t ring true to me in any way – and I don’t mean “true” as in “it really happened.” I mean the record seems to lack depth, and there’s nothing pleasing going on musically, on the surface.
I’d have no problem with you comparing “My Perfect Cousin” to “Girls Just Wanna Have Fun.” My comparison to Loverboy, I should clarify, is not on musical grounds necessarily. I’m saying that to my ears and heart the song has struck me as hitting on about the same level as “Working for the Weekend,” which isn’t as terrible a song as we make it out to be, but no one credits the genius touch of “Q” in its arrangement. Again, maybe I’m letting backstory cloud my judgement. Perhaps considering I never believed Jackson made love to an adult, I’ve never bought the supposed power and maturity of the song’s lyrics. Again, it’s as if my 12-year-old son wanted to show the world that he was growing up. This is not meant to be a knock on my son, by the way. I think he’s going to be a pretty good songwriter if he wants to go that way.
Here’s a related question: Where are the MJ songs that actually make me think I’m getting a sense of what he ACTUALLY is going through as he matures? I fear they’re far and few between, maybe those last decent songs we talked about, like “Man in the Mirror” and “Black or White.” It’s so sad to think about what that guy was going through, and as he’s coming into his prime he’s writing songs about gang fights? Mick Jagger and Keith Richard wrote about what a drag it was getting old, about never being satisfied. THAT’S stuff I can sink my teeth into. Gang fights that are really odes to a Broadway musical? Eh…
To tell the truth, I can’t even hum out a measure of “Thriller” beside the chorus, when he’s singing “Thriller!” This revelation is helping me return to my Zen-like state.
Alexmagic, here are the songs I needed to disqualify before comparing his ouevre with the two best songs by Benetar:
“Don’t Stop ’til You Get Enough”
“Rock with You”
“Off the Wall”
“Wanna Be Startin’ Somethin'”
“The Girl Is Mine”
The next three songs for me, the ones that barely edged out the first two (and best) Benetar singles, are as follows:
“Black or White”
“P.Y.T.”
“Man in the Mirror”
I am already clearing my mind and soul in anticipation of your insights.
Mod, I get why you’re asking this question. And yet, it does seem to reveal an unfair distinction between pop and rock: that rock can have sociological value, while pop can’t.
Assuming this, it can be then said that all pop is lightweight and can be lumped together (ie Jackson is equivalent to Benetar).
But it’s a pretty big assumptiion to make, I think.
Dr. John, I don’t make this pop/rock distinction that you think I make. For instance, I don’t care much for Madonna, but I’ve never thought her music was so lacking in some sense of experience and connection with the music, even if she wasn’t actually part of the experience of singing her own songs:) By the same token, the power of the great Jackson 5 songs comes right from the songs themselves and is carried on by those enthusiastic performances; it doesn’t matter that young Michael and his brothers may have had little experience with heartbreak, rodents, and whatnot. I simply find the combination of an emotionally stunted singer singing emotionally and intellectually contrived songs to be something short of GREAT, something more akin to Pat Benetar, although in greater quantity and with better production.
Mod, I still think your remarks are relying too heavily on Jackson’s backstory. His harmonic structures are way more complex, varied, and interesting than Benetar’s.
Dr. John, this song may not be representative, but where is the complex, varied, interesting harmonic structure? It’s a nice pattern, but broken down this way it’s basically a Doors song, like “Riders on the Storm”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kCwrXAtmSc
Compare with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heDnVi0crTY
Really, though, you’re an intelligent, knowledgeable music lover. Tell me in your own words what you dig about the music of solo, ’80s Michael Jackson. What are your favorite MJ songs? What musical highlights would you direct me toward, excluding any in the 5 songs I excluded from my assessment of the man’s solo works?
I look forward to your comments.
Mod, look, all the evidence is in the songs you chose (although I’d add “BAD” to the list).
They’re fun, have driving grooves, and a good fit of lyrics to melody. They remind me of early Beach Boys, in fact. They’re not deep but they do indicate songwriting craft.
Even the “best” Benetar is just plain artless. Yeah, you can sort of compare “Billy Jean” to “Hit Me,” but what gets left out is the deftness of execution: “Billy Jean” has some pretty cool syncopation, while “Hit Me” just plods along.
Have you ever tried to write a dance song? Me neither, but I bet it’s a lot harder to pull it off than it looks. And Jackson wrote some pretty cool dance songs. He succeeded in a genre which requires considerable skill in singing, songwriting, and performance.
Really? We’re having this discussion? Jackson’s music could be slick and glossy, but it had a beat and you dance to it. The rhythm to his best music could be monstrous. Sure, the lyrics can be debated, but no one is saying that MJ was a poet. “Wanna Be Startin’ Somethin’?” “Smooth Criminal?” Huge rhythm grooves. Plus I go back to the argument for the broad appeal of MJ’s music. I know that “popular” doesn’t always equal “great,” but the fact that his music couldn’t be classified as pure rock, pop, or R&B. It was a little of it all.
Like any strong musical opinion, I don’t think there is a way to sway your thoughts on this, but Michael was a very talented entertainer who crossed all sorts of barriers, which puts him in a league of his own. It goes beyond just music for him. Yes, similar to Elvis.
TB
The Beach Boys comparison – at MJ’s best – is a good one, Dr. John! I’m buying that pearl of wisdom. Please don’t get too hung up on the Benetar comparison, though. I used her in large part to wake Townspeople out of their recent slumber/Facebook “What Mama’s Family Character Are You” quiz taking. I can’t stand Benetar. I hated her when she broke, not even finding myself willing to appreciate her one objectively decent quality: her brazen attempt at pushing herself off on teenage boys as a sexual being. Ugh! Here music and singing style so offended me that I couldn’t feel a stirring in my loins over her in that spandex get-up. And this admission is coming from a once-teenage boy who thought Steve Perry was pretty hot the first time he saw “her” in a little, silk kimono on Midnight Special.
As for whether I’ve ever tried to write a dance song, yes I do at least half the time I sit down to write a song. Unlike you, I don’t make some arbitrary distinction between pop and rock, crediting only pop music with the ability to move asses:-) Seriously, Motown is as important to me as any band or genre of music, and I’d say a good chunk of my humble rhythmic inclinations are rooted in ’60s Motown rhythms with the intent of writing songs that make (primarily) white people at least feel like moving and grooving. That’s not to say I’ve had even a billionth of the success of MJ in achieving this, but the effort is not lacking.
I appreciate your efforts in this discussion. The Beach Boys musical comparison is the best thing to come out of it yet.
Let’s not beat up (groan!) too much on Mr. Mod. He puts his opinions right out there, money where his mouth is. Right now, I’m wondering about the people who voted for Pat Benetar in today’s poll. You guys — in addition to being wrong — are cowards too boot! Come out from your safe, anonymous hiding spots. Get mad, sons of bitches!
I voted for Benetar.
I don’t have time to get into it right now because I need to finish up a few things before taking my kid to the Phillies game. I just didn’t want you to think that I’m hiding.
I voted for Benatar. The choice seemed simple enough: All BUT MJ’s four best songs, vs. Benatar’s two greatest. All — ALL, mind you — of MJ’s incredibly awful output *other than his four best songs*, versus two solid winners?
Dr. John, Mod and others: have you ever *heard* any of MJ’s non-radio-friendly output? It’s unbelievably bad. The notion that I would ever have to hear *any* of MJ’s non-hits — much less ALL of them — fills me with a mixture of fear and disgust.
Seriously, don’t you guys remember his Superbowl performance, surrounded by all the little children? Imagine, like 40 or 50 tracks of that shit, separated by innumerable pants, groans and dance thumps. Not to mention his crappy J5-era solo work! (“Ben,” anybody?)
This, versus “Hit Me With Your Best Shot” or… or… well, just about any other single of Pat’s? Shit, this is *easy*.
You guys are retarded,
HVB
But I gotta hand out a big boner-shaped trophy to Oats for what I believe to be his best bit of writing EVER:
For you to compare it to a cheesy, hacky shitty piece of shit by Loverboy is just confusing me.
Seriously, I bust out laughing at Loverboy’s “shitty piece of shit.” Maybe I’m coming down with something, but that was FUNNY.
You’re okay in my book, Oats!
HVB
hvb, I tip my hat to your verve and panache.
But your reductivist rock approach won’t work this time. This is because “Hit Me” is as creepy as anything that MJ did. You seem to think that Benetar is some sort of a rock purist, like ZZ Top, free of message, loaded with tasty guitar spice and meaty riffs. Comfort food, even.
But pretty much everything Benetar did gives me indigestion. She has two modes: pseudo-political posturing (the unbelievably bad “Love Is a Battlefield”) and not real subtle odes to male dominance, which feminist-bashers find especially, uh, exciting, I’m sure.
And now I believe it’s about time to draw attention to the 500 pound elephant in the room: Benetar’s music is really, really white. It has no rhythm or style. It is generic. It is bland. It lacks irony. Next time you want to rend your garments over bands like Matchbox 20, remember who helped make them possible.
TB used the E word — entertainer. Jackson was a great entertainer. I’m just not that interested in entertainment, especially dancing.
Isn’t his appeal the whole not black/not white, not a child/but not grown up, not female/but not quite male either, not too rock or too pop, all things to all people image? He ends up being nobody, a big cipher for people to project their obsessions onto. I think it says a lot about our culture that people still bought into the ‘I don’t want to grow up’ thing after it had gone way past the edge of creepiness.
He wanted to become the biggest and he did it. But the contradictions inherent in his strategy to get there were more than a real person could bear, and he ended up an anorexic junkie freak.
Sure his music was well-made. But it was just an accessory to his stardom. For me it lacks authentic human qualities. It’s no surprise that it elicited adulation more than admiration. It just seemed to be all about celebrity.
But yes, I’m willing to entertain the idea that I was just too old to understand and too stuffy to enjoy it.
No, no, wait. You’re missing my point.
In this corner: 500,000 pounds of elephant dung. Rare, exotic elephant droppings — sweet in scent and comprised of the choicest African ferns and banana leaf, digested softly by the gentle giant of the savannah.
In this corner: two little dog turds. Plain, mean, somewhat hard and very ordinary.
Which would you rather eat?
I applaud each and every one of you who has stepped forward so far to tackle this DIFFICULT ISSUE, even cdm for “bookmarking” his eventual, detailed response (tough loss tonight…bases loaded in that one inning and nothing to show for it!). Here’s something that I found really well said, by BigSteve:
Too bad BigSteve couldn’t have read this paragraph at the Staples Center this afternoon. It would have brought tears to the eyes of those in attendance – and the world, as it watched this spectacle!
I had no intention of answering the actual question, I just wanted to force the Mod to come up with a list of Michael Jackson songs that he’d admit to liking, and got the bonus of seeing him admit to liking “Black or White” and “Man In The Mirror” again.
But BigSteve’s thought-provoking words shamed me into looking at the man in my own mirror – it was just my reflection in the computer monitor, to be honest – and I decided to Make That Change and deliver an honest answer. Ruling out the eight solo Jackson songs beloved by the Mod, I’d still have to give the edge to “Workin’ Day and Night” and “The Way You Make Me Feel” over the Benetarian twin attack of “Hit Me With Your Best Shot” and “You Better Run”.
Whew, a great weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I only hope Oats has been able to experience some healing as well. It’s been a rough time for the guy, you should have seen the bedazzled white oven mitt he was using to work the grill at a 4th of July barbeque.
I think artists will give MJ’s solo catalog another chance. Off the Wall and Thriller had plenty of strong songs (Human Nature, Don’t Stop, She’s Out Of My Life, Billie Jean) Then there were 2-3 good songs per record. The up-with-people stuff and the VERY missing Quincy Jones killed the momentum.
Man In the Mirror, Smooth Criminal, Scream, Black Or White
My brother’s band did “Goin’ Back To Indiana” the night of Michael’s death. Most people in the audiene had no idea it was a Jackson 5 song
Ha! I knew if I stalled long enough someone else would do the heavy lifting.
Kudos to you, HVB. You nailed it.
And as an aside, I applaud the fact that even though you still were unable to complete a post without making a poop reference, you did manage to refrain from using the phrase “corn studded”. That is what I call growth.
I voted for Jacko but it was close. If the over/under had been all but his 6 best songs, I would have gone with Benetar. I like “hit me with your best shot”
But hvb I can digest MJ’s songs. To me, they’re not crap. Whereas Benetar is.
While your studied non-defense of Benetar’s artistic value is a clever move, I’d like you to put up more of a fight. Choose the worst MJ song you can find and direct me to it. Hit me with your best shot, dude.
I think it took me all day to find out who the minor government functionary was who had died, but I really did wonder if the post-office was flying the flag at half mast for James Brown. That was a celeb passing of milestone importance to me. The biggest, to me, since the week of Fellini, Mancini and Zappa (no not the law office or the vineyard) dying.
I recognize that MJ was unique, and the King of Pop. As in Pop-u-lar. I just thought everything after the Jackson 5 was less fun to me. When it came out, and again now. I have 30,000 songs in my iTunes, and none of them is MJ. No big issue with him. God knows I have nothing against freaks. But his music is flat and dry to my ears. How many times am I going to hear that line about “I’ll put those albums from Off the Wall through whatever up against anything in that decade.” Geez. I see where Mod was going. For my own listening history – not as a conscious choice – but apparently my brain likes the first Violent Femmes album 773 more times than it likes all those records, if times spent listening is any judge. In my eyes he was a stunningly talented little warped bonzai tree. Amazing dancer.
But as a fan of Warts-and-All performance history, I have to point out that he is also responsible for creating the whole genre of live show with cadres of precision dancers parroting the star, and choreographing all looseness and chance out of the thing. No Fun, My Babe, No Fun.