The knowledgeable, opinionated Townspeople of Rock Town Hall have a gift (and sometimes curse) for finding fault with the greatest of the greats in rock ‘n roll. We were the first to cite Keith Richards’ dearth of memorable guitar solos. We were the first to point out that Lennon’s contributions to Rubber Soul dragged the otherwise landmark Beatles’ album down a notch. And who else but Rock Town Hall was going to bring the Charlie Watts hoax to light? OK, you none of you stooped to those depths, but let he who hasn’t picked nits around here at some point feel superior – and perhaps inferior, in our rock-snob eyes.
As a way of confirming that even we can appreciate talent and good taste when it’s there for the taking, let’s conduct a most likely fruitless exercise in nitpicking.
Last night, loaded up on 50 mg of prednisone, I watched a 1972 Roy Orbison concert from Australia. it occurred to me that, beside his genetically compromised Look, there may be very little to find worth criticizing in the man’s work. Orbison’s not among my Top 10 faves or anything, but he had a great voice; sang strong, narrative, dynamic songs; and could rock when he wanted to. Plus he made great use of shades.
Orbison fell out of circulation for years, but even his comeback efforts, both with Traveling Wilburys and solo, were more than respectable. Van Halen and David Lynch, of all people, brought the man’s haunting voice back into our lives, and then the man withstood 80s-era Jeff Lynne productions and then had the good taste to die before anyone called in Paul Shaffer, the Memphis Horns or Antony for obligatory, unnecessary, and soul-sucking collaborations.
As a way of confirming that even we can appreciate talent and good taste when it’s there for the taking, let’s conduct a most likely fruitless exercise in nitpicking. Townspeople, can we find five things worth criticizing Roy Orbison for, excluding his Look?
I look forward to evidence of our large, collective heart.
i can’t.
I should apologize in advance for the likely brevity of Comments that this post will inspire. I’m afraid the challenge is too great for even us to tackle. But don’t let my fears stop you.
It’s funny that you bring up this topic since I just got the recent box set w/some of my Chrimble swag, along w/the Love documentary, at my local Best Buy.
Possibly the only thing I could criticize him for was to think that he could have been a movie star in that movie The Fastest Guitar Alive, especially w/that guitar that doubled as a gun. Otherwise, I’m in agreement w/shawnkilroy.
Yes, his attempt at movie stardom was the one misguided thing that I could think of.
The lack of nitpicking is heartening, isn’t it?
His lyrical persona — the lonely, misunderstood guy with a heart of gold — gets a bit over-used. Not by much, mind you… I’m nitpicking!
The only thing I can think of is that his Sun recordings aren’t very good. He went to Sun to try to get his foot in the door, and it worked, but he really didn’t fit into the Sun mold, and Ooby Dooby is a very silly trifle. As soon as he went to Monument, he found his voice.
As someone who has never appreciated Roy Orbison, or understood what all the praise was about, let me propose another question to help me understand what I’m missing.
Name five things that justify Orbison’s place in the pantheon.
Here’s the bias you’ll have to get past. I just don’t see the voice. I see that it’s technically good and very powerful but I don’t see him as a great singer. He’s the Celine Dion of his time, overpowering the songs and making his voice the point of the songs.
Really, why should he be remembered as he is when my personal favorite from that era, Rick Nelson, is all but forgotten?
I tremble at the thought that saturn might turn his gaze toward me on this, but go ahead, have at it.
How about his nickname, “The Big O”? I could do without any images that could conjure up in relation to Orbison.
Al, am i that terrifying? no need to worry…the holidays are over and i have much less time on my hands starting in about 2 hours.
but i have never been a major roy orbison appreciator either. and as soon as i learned of the great reverence that so many others have for him, i felt like he was something i wasn’t sophisticated enough to understand. like he was so great it was beyond my limited understanding of things. and that may be the case.
based on what i’ve heard of his recorded output, i’ve never been compelled to listen to it religiously.
but i’ve never disliked any of it…it just never tipped the needle on the love-o-meter into the “wowza!!!” zone.
and i like ricky nelson, too!
mod’s right…it’s kinda hard to find fault with roy.
and hvb, we reach: the lonely guy persona is what I would have cited. that, and maybe the deliberate exploitation of his vocal range in the same way on many songs…but that’s a nitpick, too…he certainly didn’t do it on every song.
I’m only good with about 6 or 7 of Roy’s songs but those songs are indispensable (kind of the same way I feel about Steely Dan).
I agree with Big Steve that the early stuff is pretty lackluster. And the latter stuff he is most well known for often strays from being powerfully cinematic in scope to being flat out bombastic.
I guess the most critical thing I can say is that I have no need to own any Roy other than the 10-track best-of LP I bought used from The Book Trader about ten years ago.
To Al, I’d say there are a number of things separating Roy from Celine: For instance, Roy exhibited restraint on occasion. And he had a sense of remove about him that contrasted with the dramatic elements of his songs.
I SLAM Orbison for working with Jeff Lynne. Although Orbison lifted the quality of The Traveling Wilburys to almost listenable, the combination of Orbison and Lynne’s production was uncool. And they all assumed doofy names.
He was “Lefty Wilbury.” That’s downright embarrassing.
sammy, i don’t like Jeff Lynne either, but i think that of all the people who worked with him in the Wilbury’s period, when it seemed like he was putting *everyone* through a Jeff-Lynne-inator machine, Roy was as suited as George Harrison for that treatment.
That orchestral bombast that Lynne was so practiced at achieving from all those years in E.L.O. may have been more polished sounding than Roy’s old recordings, but it preserved the original intent in his songs. On “Anything you Want” he didn’t sound out of place on late 80s FM radio, but he still didn’t sound like an old man trying to be contemporary. Lynne deserves credit for that.
I agree with Al. Give me five reasons why I shouldn’t switch the channel whenever one of his songs comes on? I’d rather hear Van Halen do Pretty Woman and I don’t like any Travelling Dingleberries songs, either.
I’m not sure Orbison ever really worked his way through the constraints of the “teenybopper” genre, ie. limited themes, simplistic melodies, and the obvious cliches (like the dramatic flourishes on the chorus–man, that staccato guitar riff sounds pretty corny to me).
If you don’t hear it, you don’t hear it, and there’s nothing to be done about it. But I’d rate the original Pretty Woman as one of the greatest radio singles ever. Seriously toppermost of the poppermost. Van Halen didn’t even play the whole song, and it’s the flow from the riff- and rhythm-heavy outer sections through the melodic inner section that makes it so great. That plus the drama of the breakdown at the end. I don’t think it gets any better than that.
I give Lynne LOTS of credit for ELO. I am not ashamed to say that I love almost all of ELO’s output. Just listened to Eldorado yesterday.
But everything he touches outside of ELO turns to stone…turds.
The Orbison legacy is tarnished with the chalky smear from such a stone.
“Give me five reasons why I shouldn’t switch the channel whenever one of his songs comes on?”
Crying
Love Hurts
In Dreams
Only the Lonely
Blue Bayou
2Kman, As near as I can tell from your posts, of all the folks on this site, your musical taste is usually the closest to mine. I encourage you to listen to the five songs listed above and reconsider. Note that Pretty Woman didn’t make the list. A great song but we’ve heard it enough.
It was lonely as the only on-the-record ELO backer in person a few weeks ago, with no one to bond with over, say, a Laredo Tornado. Maybe if maudlin or hvb been there, we could have had a 100+ comment thread on the five best post-Discovery songs.
Yeah, maybe not.
Though I think Lynne and Orbison matched up pretty well together, the problem with post-ELO Lynne production will always be that he obviously doesn’t care about drums even a little bit, despite being able to play drums himself.
My supposed love for ELO is vastly overstated ’round these parts for general comedic effect. I like ’em okay — quite a bit for some tracks. In general, not so much.
Now, ZZ Top and Prince — that’s different!
And incidentally, one of the biggest turds I bought (thanks a LOT, eMusic!) last year was “Alpacas Orgling,” the ELO sound-alike album by “OLE.” Boy, does that thing stink!
I caught that show, too. Cool stuff.
Roy seemed like on the genuine greats. In addition to being talented, lest we forget that he also inspired some of our heroes.
I’ll only mention one: The Beatles. If history serves me correctly, The Beatles did a tour in the early days with Roy and was in total awe of the man. “Please Please Me” was originally a Roy rip before they sped it up and topped the British charts. That alone should be enough to give Roy some respect. I know he wasn’t the only one to influence the Fabs. Their talent was bound to be unleashed on the world with or without Roy, however, the mere fact that they loved him and respected him is enough for me.
I’ll admit that his aren’t the all-time greatest songs ever written, but he maintained a degree of respect and seemed to lead a pretty clean life. You don;t hear about Roy pilling up and jumping off roofs and killing wild yak and eating it raw. He was a pretty standard dude who managed to have a great voince and a knack for writing some memorable hooks.
Plus, his “comeback” was, to me, well deserved. It reminded folks of a national treasure. It also probably offered the man a sense of accomplishment in his last years; he went out on top and got to enjoy it a little. Unlike many older artists who pass as has-beens and nostalgia acts (John Denver, anyone?)
I know the point here is to nitpick, but…I just can’t.
Maybe it’s because I do happen to like ELO, Jeff Lynne, AND The Wilburys.
TB
He always struck me as a possible Mormon, and thus not really nit-pickable. Boulder-pickable, perhaps.
The Hollywood thing sticks, but I’m not buying a lot of other charges. The man withstood Lynne’s production. Like someone said, he fits in with contemporary sounds without sounding out of his own skin.
Dr. John wrote:
Was he ever really a “teenybopper?” Speaking of “simplistic melodies” and the like, wasn’t it Dr. John who last week raved over the “complex chord changes,” if I remember the exact quote of the I-IV-V chord progression that’s at the root of “Don’t Worry Baby”? Come on, man, you’ve got to judge these guys by their era. Who should have been expected to move that far from the early rock ‘n roll template in 1960?
I agree with those who claim that not digging the guy is not the same as having a particular, deserved RTH beef with him. You’ve gotta do better – and leave sour grapes about Rick Nelson out of this. Just when the guy could have gained some respect his twin freakazoid sons appeared and then poor Rick died coked up in a helicopter. The man delivered the goods in his time, but his failure to be better recognized is not a stain on Roy’s white jumpsuit.
I continue to feel encouraged by this thread.
1975 – 1986 — does this count as one?
I love Mystery Girl and think Jeff Lynne did a great job. The songs are strong, he let Roy’s Heroes pen most of them, it shows off what he did best, it didn;t sound too modern or too retro (at the time)
Willbury’s as well, The first one is WAY better, and 99% of the reason is Roy.
I like Jeff Lynne’s other productions – Dave Edmonds, Ringo, Paul, George, Beatles, Armchair Theatre, Full Moon Fever, Great Wide Open. Would have liked to see him work with Dylan in that era (like a whole record of Tweeter& The Monkey man quality).
Uh, Mod, this is what I meant:
F#
When she says (don’t worry baby)
G#m7 C#7sus4 C#7
Don’t worry baby (don’t worry baby)
F#
Everything will turn out all right (don’t worry baby)
G#m7 C#7sus4 C#7
Don’t worry baby (don’t worry baby)
B7sus4 B7
Ooh…ooh
Indeed. But I thought we were “nitpicking”!
Nitpicking for things worth criticism, Sammy.
I got you now, Dr. John, but beside the expanded harmonies, those are still basic chord progressions for the time. I’ve never played along to many Orbison songs, but he seems to use similar “romantic” or sweeping chord progressions, maybe without the suspended fourths. How do you see Orbison fitting into a teenybopper tradition? I think his songs are kind of mature for the time and introspective.
Al, by the way, your Celine Dione criticism was something else! The guy’s songs stick much better than her stuff. Sure his voice was a focal point for the songs, but could you not say that about a lot of singers, especially R&B singers?
Didn’t know you were that big of a Wilbury’s fan? Everyone in that endeavor should be shamed and it is only a testament to their individual greatness that the luster remains.
Are you telling me that your image of Orbison or Dylan or Petty or Harrison didn’t get at least a little bit scratched when they became
* Nelson Wilbury – George Harrison
* Otis Wilbury – Jeff Lynne
* Lefty Wilbury – Roy Orbison
* Charlie T. Jr. – Tom Petty
* Lucky Wilbury – Bob Dylan
????
Seriously. You can’t accept this as completely non-offensive. Or worse, a positive for these guys. I’m embarrassed for them just typing those names.
Mr. Mod, my point in bringing up Rick Nelson wasn’t sour grapes. I have wondered for a long time why he isn’t more well-known/revered/cited/whatever for his contributions to rock & roll. Roy just provides an apt comparison. I’d say he is more well-known/revered/ etc. than Rick Nelson and I for one don’t understand why that should be.
As far as Celion Dione goes, you ask “Sure his voice was a focal point for the songs, but could you not say that about a lot of singers, especially R&B singers?”
And I answer – Not the best ones. And Roy Orbison seems to be considered one of the best ones and I’m not buying it.
Sammy, the first Wilburys album contains the best work Orbison, Harrison, AND Dylan had done in years – and possibly ever since. I’m standing by that. The fact that Dylan actually played with other musicians of similar stature, like a kid would play with friends, was miraculous and charming. I have no beefs with that album even though I’ve listened to it exactly once in the last 10 years.
Al, thanks for the clarification, but I don’t know that Orbison was ever considered “one of the best” until his final years and untimely death. Was he? When I was a kid I thought he was just at the top of the B list (in the same area as Nelson, who was one of rock’s first overlooked gems because, I would think, of the likely dismissal for his teenage idol/tv star debut), where I think he belongs. I do think, however, there’s little to criticize him about. I think he displayed great taste and professionalism any time his music hit the public. Buddy Holly, a much greater talent (I think), would have done well to have displayed as spotless a career had he lived as long.
Means you haven’t listened to it in 10 years. Let go of your defensive stance. Listen to it again, all the way thru, with headphones, alone in a dimly lit room and report back.
That album is stone cold turd and I stand by their individual need to be shamed.
I’m this close to filing Rock Crime charges against them. This close.
And I’m not an Orbison hata, Mr. Mod, despite the way my posts might sound. He seems to get more praise than I think is warranted. And just the title of this thread suggests high praise (after all, if there’s nothing to criticize that isn’t a nit…).
My initial suggestion was just that, if there’s nothing to criticize, neither do I think there is much to laud. I could live with your suggestion that he’s the top of the B list, even if I would personally put him lower.
But Rick Nelson a B-lister – never!!!
Mod, even if the basic chord progressions are the same, there are worlds of difference between “Only the Lonely” and “Don’t Worry Baby.”
There’s something very simplistic about Orbison’s song (written in 1960)that fits it neatly within the early 60s teenybopper genre: a world where even the most trivial (not getting a date) is elevated to levels of sheer pathos. It is this overblown emotional trajectory that John Waters parodies in his films and that David Lynch always uses as a symbol of postwar “innocence.”
Whereas “Don’t Worry Baby” is about the narrator wondering if he’s going to die in a drag race. That’s a lot heavier than heartbreak. If anything, Wilson takes the opposite approach, downplaying the anxiety. So, then, Wilson is already past a sort of naive reflection of innocence–the boy is on his way to adulthood, if he survives this rite of passage.
Good Doctor, your ability to ascribe meaning to innocent works of art is without paralell around here. I see what you’re saying, but drag racing is pretty stupid and immature – and I don’t know that any teenybopper wetting his or her undies at the beauty of “Don’t Worry Baby” tuned into the drag racing aspect anyhow. Maybe this is a sad commentary on my ability to be swept up in the music more than the lyrics, but show of hands if any of you who grew up hearing that song – before you immersed yourself in rock tomes – knew it had anything to do with drag racing and mortality. I honestly gave that no thought the hundreds of times I listened to the song as a kid and young teen.
Even so (I’m willing to play the fool regarding my never paying attention to the narrative of the lyrics), we’re talking about drag racing… You’re telling me worries over drag racing are more mature than dealing with heartbreak? Man, I’m must be a real emotional infant.
I won’t get into the fact that Brian probably had trouble operating a car under normal conditions.
i was just about to say…
dr. john, i checked lyrics for both songs, and i think you’re retrofitting your interpretation to a visceral reaction to both songs instead of really analyzing them.
visceral reactions are fine if you just want to say you like brian’s song better than roy’s.
but if you want to argue for one’s sophistication over the other, then it’s not.
your description of roy’s song as one that is about “not being able to get a date” sells the lyrics short. read them. they may be simple, but they’re not about a simple topic. he’s alone. and he’s worried about not being able to find a companion.
by the same token, you amplify the profundity of ‘don’t worry baby’ to make your case (which, by the way, probably has lyrics by roger christian, not brian). the closest i can find to an explicit expression of anxiety about death is the line in the first verse “I don’t know why but I keep thinking something’s bound to go wrong.” nowhere else does he come as close to saying that he’s worried about death.
so roy is completely alone and without consolation in his song, but brian has a woman telling him not to worry, and that’s probably because she that it might be easier to drive in a straight line than he might think.
i guess, in the end, i find it hard to find which measuring device is most effective in determining which song is more profound. so i’m not down with your categorization of the one as ‘teenybopperish’ and the other as ‘sophisticated.’
as an aside, i asked my dad, who was around during this era and paid attention to music, which act was the teeny bopper act: roy or the beach boys.
he laughed and said, “you kiddin’ me? the beach boys.”
First off, I hope it’s clear that I’m nitpicking, right?
And I’m no fan of drag racing, Mod, but I can tell you I’m pretty sure that death can be the end result of something going “wrong.” So death is clearly on the narrator’s mind.
Sat, the reason why I think “Don’t Worry Baby” is more sophisticated is in the subtext: the narrator is worried what his girlfriend “means” when she says, “don’t worry baby.” Is she telling him that because she does think he’s going to wreck? Is she hiding her own fear?
Granted, this is a character driven song (not about Brian as far as I can tell), whereas “Only the Lonely” (while also co-written) is more self-reflective. But what bugs me is yes, I know the song is about a topic that’s not simple, but, after reading the lyrics, it comes across precisely that way.
Dr. John, for your hard work at nitpicking, I’ll grant you your beef. I think that still leaves Roy three short criticisms of the fistfull we usually generate on a given artist within hours of such a post hitting The Main Stage. Bravo, Roy Orbison!