Aug 292008
Let’s not debate a winner quite yet. Instead let’s get some nominees. RULE: Each nomination must be seconded to be included in the final debate.
I’ll start by nominating Robert Fripp’s Exposure. Can I hear an amen?
Let’s not debate a winner quite yet. Instead let’s get some nominees. RULE: Each nomination must be seconded to be included in the final debate.
I’ll start by nominating Robert Fripp’s Exposure. Can I hear an amen?
This one’s gonna take some thought: at least a few hours to connect “Exposure” to “Avant Punk.”
[digs out his copy]
I’ll be thinking about this as I also reconsider that Fripp-Hall stuff.
The Modern Dance is an obvious first tier contender, but Dub Housing? Not sure it’s punk enough to be avant punk.
Double Nickels on the Dime is another clear contender.
I’ll second Modern Dance. Still waiting for a second on Exposure. Is Double Nickels “avant” enough?
I prefer Dub Housing.
Also PiL’s Second Edition/Metal Box and Gang of Four’s Entertainment.
I will give a full throated second to Second Edition and 3/4 throated second for Entertainment. I won’t second Dub Housing as I prefer Dance but I bet Mr. Mod will.
Still waiting for a second for Exposure. If I have to, I’ll bet The Back Office will, even though he rarely likes to inject himself into the daily discourse.
Daydream Nation by Sonic Youth is the Sgt. Pepper of Avant Punk.
I’ll second Daydream Nation and Entertainment, but if those two records are avant punk, then Double Nickels certainly is.
I love Entertainment, but it is not the Sgt. Pepper of avant-punk. It is too clean and focused, Go4’s first and best album. I’d say to qualify as the Pepper of Avant-punk, the record should represent a giant expansive leap into a new epic dimension for the band in question. The PIL, Minutemen and Sonic Youth nominations fill the bill in my mind. I’d pick PIL Second Edition by a nose.
If it gets a “second” then it gets in the running. We can split hairs in the final evaluation.
I doubt that it will win, but if we nominate Double Nickels then Zen Arcade should be on the list too.
I don’t really think that Sgt. Pepper’s represents “a giant expansive leap into a new epic dimension” for the Beatles. But in any case I was thinking more in terms of the album representing the crystallization of the possibilities of music in relation to the work of the artist’s contemporaries.
Just to already split hairs, I can’t say I agree with this. The Minutemen sound is entirely distinct from their punk brethren, whereas Husker has a fairly conventional punk roar, albeit a little heavier than had been the norm before them.
But Zen Arcade has lots of stuff on it besides punk roar, including acoustic songs and that thing with the backwards looping.
Well, part of the problem with this thread from the get go is that have no even loose working definition here of what we mean by “avant.” The things you’re talking about on Zen Arcade still work within the relatively conventional song structures of punk. If it means anything at all, “avant” means a challenge to conventional structures, not just unexpected instruments playing conventional structures.
I figured there would be some definition discrepancies but I’m surprised that anyone nominated The Minutemen or Husker Du.
To be considered avant-punk to me it must be much more “avant” than “punk”. If its punk with avant touches then it’s not avant punk. And for it to be in the running for the Sgt. Pepper thereof it really has to be a shattering of anything that came before. (I’m not necessarily aguing that Sgt. Pepper’s actually did that but that’s what’s implied by the phrase in discussion.)
PIL, Pere Ubu, Robert Fripp, Sonic Youth I think are all clearly more avant than punk. In fact if you took the avant out of these bands you wouldn’t have that much left.
If you took the avant out of the Minutemen or Husker Du, you’d have something akin to live Minutemen or Husker Du.
How about the early Half Japanese stuff?
i know i already nominated something, but i also wanna secont second edition by pil
I’m gonna throw out The Descendents’ “All.”
Double Nickles is canonical for sure, so maybe it should be HoF’d.
I listened to the Exposure LP last night, and there’s avant but damned if I could locate any punk.
I have a very long, boring story about some people I barely remember from college, a story that doesn’t really have anything much to do with Zen Arcade, but I swear it proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Zen Arcade is in fact an avant punk milestone and that another style of music I know almost nothing about is complete shit. Plus the people associated with this other style of music are completely worthless human beings, because I say so.
If I have time I’ll write up this story tomorrow. And then I’ll disappear for a few months without in engaging in discussions about this or anything else before issuing my next monologue.
I’ll second the early Half Japanese.
I don’t understand your perspective on The Minutemen, Sammy. They sound completely unlike other L.A. scene punk bands, or punk bands from anywhere else, for that matter. Maybe there’s some Gang of Four there, actually, even a little Beefheart, who isn’t punk but who’s clearly the Grandfather of Avant Punk.
Cigarette, Breathless, Disengage, NY3, Haaden Two…all have punk ethos. Sometimes its more attitude than anything but I’m confident that without punk, there’d be no Exposure. I won’t go to the mats for it though because it actually isn’t even in my top 3 as a contender. But it deserves to be considered more so than Husker Du.
Just the title “I May Not Have Had Enough of Me But I’ve Had Enough of You” is punk enough to meet the criteria.
I love Zen Arcade and Double Nickels. They are my favorite releases by both those bands. I saw both tours. I have a busted D.Boon guitar string from this tour.
But when I think “avant” I think “arty”, self conscious, forced, overly or overtly _____. Not necessarily in a bad way. Wouldn’t be out of place heard at a SoHo art gallery kind of thing. But with a punk edge, ethos, attitude.
Minutemen especially are more earthy. They took punk in a creative way for sure, if for their intelligence if nothing else, but more in a funky folkster kind of way. Like groovy punk hippies with their hearts on their sleeves. Similar with Husker Du.
So Avant-Punk to me isn’t “creative, adventurous punk” it is more like an Ariste with bleached hair.
I listened to PiL’s Second Edition on the ride home and thought that I’d log on an nominate that album. Others have beaten me to it, which could be significant.
There was a punk ethos? What was it, ‘please kill me’?
OK BigSteve. If you can’t hear the under and overtones of punk anger and energy in some of these tracks, and no one else stands up for it, Exposure won’t be seconded and won’t make the cut.
Anger is an energy…
Sammy, I think your definition of “avant” and mine maybe have no more than 20% overlap. I mean, I understand your elaboration, but damned if I don’t think you mean “prog punk” rather than “avant punk.” Again, to me “avant” implies a significant change in the structure of the music, not just in artsying it up. Pere Ubu, for instance, is another band that along with The Minutemen proves that “earthy” or “primitive” and “avant” are not necessarily opposites. Instead though you seem more to mean those albums where punk crosses paths with something like King Crimson or even Yes. To my mind, just FYI, King Crimson is avant sometimes (the Discipline trilogy, parts of Lark’s Tongue) but Yes never.
I hear you mwall and can’t say I totally disagree. But my starting point was the UK mag The Wire calling Exposure “the Sergeant Pepper of avant punk.”
I started with the place that coined the term and what album they were referring to and went from there in forming my understanding.
Another more pedestrian way I look at is “forced weird” or “weird for weird sake.” I hear that Pere Ubu doing some “weird for weird sake” but not so much of The Minutemen.
But this is Rock Town Hall where the people decide. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Don’t tread on us, We the People.
So later today I’m going to put a poll and new thread containing only those albums that were seconded and let the people speak.
If the new Sgt Pepper’s has to be a later album in a band’s oeuvre that represents an expansion in its music, we’re not going to have many nominees. Post-punk didn’t last very long, and most of the bands we usually think of as post-punk didn’t make that many records.
How about Wire’s Chair’s Missing? Or maybe The Ideal Copy? Send?
I’ll second Chairs Missing.
sorry I’m late to the party, but I had my second parent ambush this summer over the holiday weekend (or I should say pleasant surprise). You wouldn’t think I would get surprised so much when they are in NC and I’m in ME.
I would say that Wire’s “154” is more avant (and still punk) than Chairs Missing. Chairs Missing is good, and I understand why it overshadows “154” for a lot of people, but “154” pushes the boundaries more then “Chairs Missing.” It is definitely underrated. I don’t know if we can nominate more then 1 album for a band, but I would nominate “154”.
By the way has anyone been enjoying Wire’s new “Object 47”?
I will also temporarily hi-jack this discussion to again push the Sunderland scene emerging as the bands from the area seem to be right up the alley of those who like Gang of Four and Wire (Field Music has been described by Uncut as “Wire produced by Brian Wilson”).
I just picked up the 2nd side project album of the “in hiatus” Field Music, the self-titled “The Week that Was” by the Peter Brewster. It is heavy on percussion and pretty great on the first listen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nOKDMl-aDk&feature=related
His brother and band-mate David Brewis put out his side project School of Language, “Sea From Shore” which is also really great.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-YnX53UH68&feature=related
The Futureheads are the another popular band from the area, who I really love.
The bands may not be avant, but they are extremely brainy.
Hey Mac. Thanks for the tips.
I discovered Field Music earlier this year and really, really like Tones of Town. I wrote bit about them here: https://www.rocktownhall.com/blogs/index.php/2007/11/14/mystery_date_revealed_field_music
Didn’t really seem to go over with a bang. So nice to have some company on these guys. I’ll definitely check out the side projects you mentioned.
killing joke, joy divison,flipper?avant-punk?butthole surfers most of all!i don’t stack the dishes or seperate the silverware,it’s hard to relate to the according to hoyle part of this discussion,but i agree with all your passion for pepper-like status of selections,all good music you obviously appriciate.analog/digital?god my ears are blowin smokerings tryin to follow your big brains.hunters and collectors.a league of gentlemen.no wave.but for me there is only one avant-punk icon,bowie.although when on auto,the word avant makes me instinctively reach for discipline,beat or three of a perfect pair.sometimes zappa.now i’m really confused.i guess it is all a matter of opinion.to me the first avant-punk song is jimmy reed and his orchestra doing deep blue sea, oh yeah ,thats the blues.what about the residents,or the velvet underground?fuck it thats why im just an old hard-core punk…bones
i have seen husker du butthole surfers king crmson minuetmen and many others that may or maynot fit ones criteria for avant-anything,but the residents 13th anniversary mole show with snakefinger at the ritz in nyc winter of 85 or 86 was,well i don’t know what the hell that was.other worldly, and for damn sure genius.leary died before he could talk me down…oh,im most sure,games without frontiers is gabriels 2nd album.sorry bout my spelling and punkuatoin,grammar,lack of tech. proficiency.quit school in 76,quit learning in 72,quit givin a shit in 70.im an infant on the computer,but glad to be here somewhere…..bones.
sorry to get so far off the subject,but can you help me nail down that year of the mole show,it was the night before the space shuttle blew up.i was layin on a floor in brooklyn unsure if it was really happening,tryin unsuccessfully to come down.the irony of this didn’t help matters at all.
Bonehead, where you been, man? The Residents Third Reich and Roll do it for me! I want to change my vote.