Fading Captain Guides Phantom Tollbooth’s Strangest of Trips

This interview was conducted with key contributions by Townsman Kpdexter!

A few months ago, Kpdexter wrote about the unique collaboration between Robert Pollard and late-80s Indie Rock band Phantom Tollbooth known as Beard of Lightning. If you’ll recall, Pollard was a fan of the band’s works, and with his combination of fanboy exuberance and cult hero pull he received both a copy of the master tapes of their 1988 album Power Toy minus the vocals as well as the band’s blessing to write and record a new set of lyrics and melodies.

Phantom Tollbooth, “Bonus Track” (original from Power Toy)

Phantom Tollbooth, “The Cafe Interior” (Pollard’s take from Beard of Lightning)

A few of us in the Halls of Rock thought, What a brilliant, nerdy fantasy for Pollard to have achieved! A month or so later, when Phantom Tollbooth’s very own Gerard Smith contacted us to point out an inaccuracy in the original piece (since corrected, thanks), we thought to ourselves, What must it have felt like to be on the other end of a rock nerd’s fantasy come true? To our delight, Smith agreed to discuss the making of both the original Power Toy and the remade/remodeled Beard of Lightning from his band’s perspective. The interview that follows met the expectations of at least two rock nerds. We hope you dig it too.

Indie Rock in the ’80s, though highly inspirational and influential, was rough terrain for a band to operate.

How would you describe Beard of Lightning relative to Power Toy? A variation on a theme, an entirely new work, or something else?

First, I need to tell you how grateful I am to Bob Pollard for voicing his interest in Phantom Tollbooth. His contribution to this project was tremendous.

Beard of Lightning is an entirely new work. If you put them back-to-back, the vocal ideas, lyrics and the mixes are uniquely different. One thing that stands out to me is Bob’s placement of the words. In many instances, he sings in places where Dave or I didn’t and laid back in places where we did. It’s a wonderfully strange parallel to the original. I think BOL is free standing, but I also think that Power Toy still sounds great.

How did this remaking of Power Toy into Beard of Lightning happen? I’ve read some stories about Pollard saying that you would have been huge had he been in the band, and you guys called his bluff. True? Can you give us a taste of the initial discussions and planning and what went through your minds?

Flattery was my first response, though it wasn’t a complete surprise. Bob had expressed his interest in PT for a time long before Beard of Lightning. Over the years I’d heard from friends that we were a topic of his passing conversations. Dave Rick was responsible for making initial contact with Bob through Chris Slusarenko at Off Records. Once the idea came about, we all got into the same space after 15 years, had dinner and came to an agreement. Given our initial relationship as a very tough democratic unit, it was our natural inclination to bring Bob on as a 4th and equal member of this newly conceptualized idea of Phantom Tollbooth.

Bob is a good sport in his praise of what could have been. I also think that had we been more of priorty at Dutch East India (distributor and owner of Homestead Records) we’d have probably reached a wider audience, even without Bob’s assistance. Indie Rock in the ’80s, though highly inspirational and influential, was rough terrain for a band to operate. Factor in the kinds of influences that informed our songs and the crazy, chaotic structures that they were built upon, we didn’t make things any easier. All things considered though, Bob’s redo of the vocals/lyrics make for a smoother listen. Daniel Rey’s remixes are also great.

Did Pollard consult with you throughout the process, or did you simply give him the masters and he came back with the new vision for your instrumental tracks?

It really wasn’t all that ceremonial though I understand why it could be perceived that way. The tapes were sent to Bob in Dayton, where he laid down the new vocals/lyrics and in about 2 months time, he turned it around.

That’s not to say that I wasn’t flattered when Bob held on to part of the original chorus that I wrote for “Criticise The Critters” (re-titled “Atom Bomb Professor” on BOL), because I was, deeply so.

I read about 30 reviews of Beard of Lightning in hopes of gaining insight about the process, and they all made it sound like Pollard “simply” added new vocals, lyrics, and melodies to your rhythm tracks. But there are new instruments on some of the songs and some mixes are cast in a new light, right?

Daniel Rey tweaked the original Spot-produced tracks so that they were a little more “Classic Rock” sounding but no new instruments were added. What really surprised me was how he brought out some of our less-obvious influences, like The Who, something Bob picked up on long before the project. The other difference between the 2 albums was the inclusion of our first single, “Valley of The Gwangi” (re-titled “Mascara Snakes”) and the decision to exclude our cover of the Heart song, “Barracuda”.

When did you first hear Pollard’s work on your songs? Did he present them piece by piece or did you hear the album all at once?

Pretty much all at once. We basically gave the tapes up to Bob so he could canvas his ideas. Once he was done, we heard his parts in the rough mixes.

Did you have any sort of “veto power?”

We definitely had “veto power”, but because we liked his work so much, there wasn’t a whole lot of debate.

It’s important to know that we really liked to jam.

How did it feel to have your “babies” genetically altered, so to speak? Can you walk us through the feelings you went through while Pollard changed a song that you originally sang? Any changes that you were especially pleased with or disappointed in?

The PT sound was densely composed music and became less straightforward as we evolved. Even amongst ourselves, the musical ideas were subject to debate, change, and general reworking to begin with. I suppose that’s why I didn’t have deep personal feelings of sanctity about the original effort. And I don’t think that the BOL idea was inconsistent with the initial tenets of how we operated. That’s not to say that I wasn’t flattered when Bob held on to part of the original chorus that I wrote for “Criticise The Critters” (re-titled “Atom Bomb Professor”), because I was, deeply so.

Phantom Tollbooth, “Criticise the Critters” (orig.)

Phantom Tollbooth, “Atom Bomb Professor” (w/Pollard)

Naturally, I had some level of concern that some fans might think that BOL was a bit of a reach and I wasn’t terribly thrown when Gerard Cosloy declined my request that he write the liner notes (he felt that the originals sounded better – and better left alone). I respect him for that and I know he didn’t enjoy delivering the message.

Backing up a bit, can you tell us how songs were composed and recorded for Power Toy? We were discussing prog-rock on the list recently, and along the similar lines with your music, Kevin and I wondered where you began in writing your songs?

Our approach to Power Toy was fairly consistent with the earlier records. It’s important to know that we really liked to jam and I think we became pretty artful about it. Throughout our relationship, we had a general practice of beginning rehearsal with 20 or so recorded minutes and then we’d play it back and extract anything useful to build from. We eventually reached that intuitive level where each of us could, to some degree, predict what was going to happen at the next turn and then run with it…whether we were grooving on a specific riff or playing “free”. “Janus Pan” [entitled “Bogus Track” on Power Toy] is a good example of that and was conceived in one recorded take as an instrumental during the Power Toy sessions. This isn’t to say that individual members didn’t bring in fleshed-out ideas (they did a lot of the time), but we also viewed jamming as fertile territory. Lyrics on the other hand were written by Dave or I on the songs that each of us sang.

How was it working with Spot? What did he bring to the sessions?

Power Toy was recorded at Cedar Creek Studios in the late winter of 1987. It was the biggest budget we’d worked with and it was nice to be in Austin, TX, away from the chilly northeast weather. My first memory of Spot was his immediate story telling and his dealings with Black Flag, Nig Heist, The Minutemen, and the whole SST experience. I was in total awe of this guy and probably a little intimidated by his legend. He was a sweet man with robust and humorous sentiments about all things from his cats to woman and music. He was also a PRODUCER and understood the art of gentle persuasion. In the coolest, most agreeable way, he had final say of how things would get done.

Just to give you an idea of the hilarity of our relationship, there were 3 separate stage incidents where each of us took turns walking off in the middle of the set to brood.

How did you see what you were doing musically? Where did you think you fit in back then? Might your work have been better appreciated in another time?

It’s probably a case youthful hubris, but I really believed we were onto something profound. To play music like that, you really had to have some line of defense, so even now, I don’t feel too weird about how I felt at the time. I was also incredibility frustrated by our low sales and generally low US audience participation. I remember feeling really uncomfortable trying to explain to anyone uninitiated to the 1st generation of Indie Rock that I’d feel “really successful” if we sold 15,000 units. It’s just what we were up against.

Europe was a more satisfying experience altogether (more people at shows, better accommodations and press), but not enough to keep us together. The thing about PT was volatility. Even at our most successful, we would fight and yell, sometimes even on stage. Europe was like that and yet somehow our audience seemed to really get off on it. Just to give you an idea of the hilarity of our relationship, there were 3 separate stage incidents where each of us took turns walking off in the middle of the set to brood. Like I said, audiences seemed to really enjoy this depraved form of interpersonal tension.

I had a pretty difficult time reconciling just where we fit in. Our sound was difficult to pin down (an “enigma” according to one acquaintance), so I’m hard pressed to offer too much analysis here. We certainly played with the greats: The Minutemen, Sonic Youth, Butthole Surfers, Dinosaur Jr., etc, so I’m thankful that our “enigma” was curious to some.

Why did you choose to cover “Barracuda”? Was it an ironic
tongue-in-cheek kind of a thing or an homage?

It was both. The tongue in cheek part was probably a little less intended, but my vocal yelping didn’t exactly help the cause. We actually played a lot of covers, all with the idea that we could “personal stamp” them in some way. Jon Coats says that we liked to mess with musical perceptions and I think that’s probably true in terms of what we were and what people expected of us. I remember talking to a friend in Philadelphia and he was like “you’re really gonna cover this?” So while Classic Rock definitely informed our sound, it wasn’t necessarily evident at the time. Obviously, a great deal has occurred in music since 1988, and I believe that we are perceived to occupy a different realm since Bob’s intervention. At the time, at least some elements of our catalog were considered esoteric. A few years back, I remember reading someone’s assessment of BOL and how they felt that we sounded like bad ’80s hair metal. That was completely laughable to me. It also made me realize what point we’ve reached. I mean, metal had some influence over what we did, but no more than Mission of Burma, Massacre, Black Flag, Void, or the downtown “New Music” scene – John Zorn, Elliot Sharp/Carbon, etc. Anyway, I had hoped that “Barracuda” would serve as a reference to our rock roots (not just punk/noise/art damage), and I think we achieved our objective.

What was it like playing together again in December 2004, after so many years, at a sold out show at Irving Plaza, opening for Guided By Voices at one of their last gigs?

Not only did that show sell out, but 3 months in advance! I think we all felt the pressure of it, especially because we were really doing this for Bob, one of our biggest fans. Seriously, during sound check he came up to me and started quoting my lyrics from “One Way Conversation”, from 16 years earlier!

There was also the pressure of time. Jon Coats lives in Austin, TX so aside from our individual rehearsals playing along to the original records, we only had a week’s time together before the show. One listen to those tracks and you can understand why I was intimidated after not having played them for 15 years. But yeah, the reunion show was all love and hugs. The whole GBV entourage stood and cheered us on at the side during our set. After we were done, Bob rushed the stage and almost wouldn’t let us get off. That was pure magic!

Now that some time has passed, do you feel like Pollard’s work was in any way a commentary on your original work? Were there ways in which Beard justified what you felt was worthwhile about your efforts? Were there ways in which the album underscored things in your music you may look back on with some regrets or doubts? In other words, how did the album
reflect on your efforts from all those years ago?

Splendid Magazine wrote that “Power Toy was instantly hailed as a groundbreaking fusion of dissonant post-punk polemics and scathing art-house contempt.” That’s a nice embellishment and while only partly true, the “Art Rock” tag weighed pretty heavily. The thing that BOL (and Bob!) drives home is that “Rock and Roll” is also up on the scale. That’s a really satisfying outcome.

What are you up to these days? You’ve still been playing, right? Any more projects in the works with your old Phantom Tollbooth mates? With Pollard?

Last year I helped a friend of mine, Ben Miller (ex-Destroy All Monsters) with his band Third Border to record the album, Sun of Water, Sea of Light. I also work from time to time with Jon Coats on his project, Canartic in Austin TX. Here at home in NYC, I currently play with drummer Jarrod Ruby (also of Third Border) on a new bass and drums project.

For fun, if there was a “battle of the Tollbooths,” which one would win, the original edition or Pollard’s edition?

I’d have to call it a draw!