Sep 182009
What artist completes the Mount Rushmore of Rock?
It goes without saying that The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, and Bob Dylan constitute three quarters of this soon-to-be historic monument, which the U.S. National Park Service is planning to sculpt in an undisclosed location. Who’s the fourth and final artist (solo or band) to be chiseled into stone?
Elvis.
Yeah, I think Elvis is the pretty obvious choice given the set up.
But I don’t think I agree with the premise that “it goes without saying” that the Stones and Beatles belong up there.
If Rushmore is to serve as a model, we really ought to focus our attention on the “founding fathers” of rock n roll. The Beatles and Stones are really kind of late in the game.
I’d rather see Louis Jordan, Big Joe Turner, Chuck Berry, and Jerry Lee Lewis up there TBH. Now that’s entertainment.
Big dittos on Elvis. The question would now be Young Elvis or Vegas Elvis?
Given what’s there, it must be elvis Presley. I say that without hesitation.
However, instead of The Stones, I might say that James Brown belongs up there. Of course for clarity’s sake, he might be included in R&B or soul music instead of pure Rock. I think his importance and influence on popular music is bigger than that of The Stones. But argument can be made that JB wasn’t a Rocker while The Stones certainly are of the highest order.
TB
Well, given the limitations you’ve placed on this, I agree with Elvis being the right choice, with Chuck Berry a distant second. I would go with ’69 Comeback Special Elvis because the time frame fits in the best with the other 3.
However, I agree with butcherpete that all of these guys came late to the game.
I don’t care if this sounds xenophobic: Rock is American. The Brits often do it better but we invented it and anyone who came after the R&R Hall of Fame’s first two groups of inductees is standing on the shoulders of giants.
It should be Elvis, Chuck Berry and Little Richard. The last spot should either be Buddy Holly, Bo Diddley, or the Everly Brothers. My personal preference is Bo but looking at it objectively, it should probably be Buddy because he wrote and produced his own material, was more pop than r&b or blues, was part of a band, etc.
Ultimately, however, the decision as to who fills the last spot should be settled with a fistfight in a Roadhouse-style dive bar after a night of drinking cheap whiskey and Budweiser.
I anticipate that the Mod is going to dismiss the “founding fathers” movement by pointing out that people like Alexander Hamilton for instance is not on Mount Rushmore. But Mount Rushmore is limited to Presidents, and regardless of any contributions Hamilton may have made to the founding of our country, he never grabbed the brass ring. My proposed members of the Mount Rushmore of Rock have all made crucial contributions and none can be excluded on a technicality like Hamilton.
Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt weren’t “founding fathers,” butcher pete, and some of the guys you mention aren’t really rock ‘n roll artists. It sounds like you’ve got the start toward a Plymouth Rock of Rock.
The suggestion that we finalize this monument with Elvis does not surprise me, but I’m surprised that anyone’s questioning the Stones’ place on the Mount Rushmore of Rock! Personally, there’s no question whatsoever in my mind who deserves the final spot, but I’ll hold off on sharing my thoughts so as to not influence discussion at this early a stage.
cdm, you speak of “limitations” that I’ve imposed on this decision. I don’t recall setting any limitations on the final choice. I’m re-reading the set-up now, and I still find it to be as inviting and democratic as intended.
Mod:
It’s been done. See:
http://leshopheavysound.unblog.fr/files/2007/09/img8312.jpg
Sorry to have to stomp on your dick like that.
HVB
Yeah, that’s a funny album cover, HVB, but those douchebags don’t belong on stage at one of those early ’80s “rock concert” novelty items. We’re charged with something greater than the design of a friggin’ Deep Purple album cover. My dick can withstand that image any day of the week.
Your approach is all wrong here. Forget the talent issue, I think this should be about which musicians most resemble the Presidents on Mount Rushmore. I’ll get us started: Pepper-era Lennon for Teddy Roosevelt and Adrian Belew for George Washington.
As the question is posed, I guess Elvis is the obvious choice. But it’s wrong for everybody up there to be white, unless that’s the point you’re trying to make.
How about Hendrix?
Alexmagic, with all due respect to your humorous sideview of the issue, I’ve been thinking about this for a long time, and when the National Park Service approached us to garner our thoughts on the matter I was honored, as I’m sure – deep down – you feel honored. I look forward to your sober thoughts on this subject as well as your less-sober thoughts.
As for your take on the matter, alexmagic, the Lincoln spot was long ago assigned by Chickenfrank to the old accordian player for Ben Vaughn Combo, Gus Cordovox (seated on the right):
http://a3.vox.com/6a00cd97849482f9cc00f48ce3c50b0003-500pi
When I first broached this topic with some friends over a late-night feast a couple of weeks ago, someone mentioned Hendrix. How about Hendrix? He’s not my choice for the fourth spot, but he definitely fits the criteria that I’ve had in mind while assessing my selections.
Now THERE’s a project I can get behind, alexmagic! Surely one of the members of The Band sported an Abe Lincoln beard at one point?
… and more to the point: who should be featured on the Rock Crazy Horse mountain carving? Should they be allowed to produce the Rock Stonewall Jackson mountain carving, and who would *that* be?
You can see you’ve opened up a big can of worms here.
Garth Hudson would definitely be the Rutherford B. Hayes of Rock, hvb.
That’s just a messy looking monument. Pete Townshend should be up there just for his nose.
Jim Morrison could be the Jim Garfield of Rock. Although, I suppose he killed himself really.
Thank you, mockcarr. For me, no doubt about it (OK, a little doubt, once someone at our late-night feast asked about Elvis, Hendrix, and Led Zeppelin), The Who claims the final place.
Now that we’ve had some time to think about this, no one really disagrees with the selection of The Beatles, The Stones, and Dylan, right?
Sorry, my mind trailed off—the bit about “founding fathers” and all. Two of the four were founding fathers. I’d think that at least two of the four up there on Rock Rushmore ought to be from the early days.
The question is how you define early. Nick Tosches had this quip about how by the time Elvis came along rock n roll was already dead. As a fan of Louis Jordan, Roy Brown, Amos Milburn, Wynonie Harris, et al, I am rather attracted to idea.
Anyway, there ought to be a giant stone Little Richard head out there somewhere.
I do. That is, disagree with the Beatles, Stones, and Dylan.
Have you seen what the final version of the Crazy Horse memorial is supposed to look like?
http://www.manataka.org/images/CrazyHorse%20Memorial.jpg
“Ride a Rock Horse” Daltrey, no question. I’m actually suspicious now that he didn’t anticipate this discussion and start funding the Crazy Horse sculpture himself.
Kinks, hands down.
I hear Little Richard himself is going to be bussing tables in the cafeteria at the monument, so no need for a statue.
butcher pete, I respect your disagreement with the first three selections that had been assumed. I especially respect the fact that you’ve been taking the time to lay out your criteria.
I’ve been thinking about this for a long time and have my own set of criteria, but I’m willing to hear other nominations for the first three spots. However, I caution anyone against simply throwing names against the granite to see if they’ll stick. For instance, don’t give us ZZ Top, Prince, and ELO, Hrrundi.
In the interest of reaching across the aisle, I could begrudgingly get behind the Beatles, the Stones, Elvis and Little Richard.
Remember too that Teddy Roosevelt totally does not deserve to be up there with the others. He’s there because at the time of construction he seemed more important than he does from our vantage point. So if we’re going to mimic the original we should have a more recent musician who’s really not quite up to the standard of the others.
And do we really want it to be all men? Apparently at one point they were going to try to add Susan B. Anthony to the monument, and they didn’t follow through.
And I don’t think there should be more than one non-American.
Duane Allman is the Chester A. Arthur of rock.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/presidents/chesterarthur/
And I’m not sure who the Grover Cleveland of Rock is but Dennis Franz should play both of them in their bio pics.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/presidents/grovercleveland/
I think that Elvis and Chuck Berry have to be there…but I’m not sure who I would remove to make it 4. If I had to scrap one of the original three, it would be the Stones.
BigSteve, how can you be so sensitive to issues of race and gender and then side with xenophobic cdm on limiting this monument to no more than one American? I count on Townspeople being logical and consistent. I would have thought you’d be making the case for a Congolese musician or some Danish electronica cat.
I am glad you raised the issue of Teddy Roosevelt’s inclusion on the presidential version of this monument. This came up at our late-night test run, and one planning committee member used his inclusion to justify her nomination for The Kinks. In other words, use the Teddy head wisely, if you so choose.
pudman13 is pointing out one of the difficulties I found with the founding fathers of ’50s rock: Elvis or Chuck or Little Richard or Buddy Holly or what? Then we’re faced with accusations that Elvis “ripped off” the black man, although his music sounds nothing like the music of Berry and Little Richard – and those two don’t have a lot in common. Then we’re stuck with butcher pete wanting to go back to pre-rock artists who may better encompass the early contributions by the black man, in general. It’s tough work, but what I’ve found, by thinking about this, is the application of stringent criteria can help make the decision easier and remove a degree of doubt.
General Zod. He pretty much rocks.
There are only 4 spots! Lots and lots of worthy, relevant people will be left off. We have 6 decades of rock, and I think all of us are selecting from the 50s and 60s.
I’m going with Elvis, Beatles, Dylan, and James Brown.
Elvis represents that first awesome wave. Sorry, Chuck Berry. I’d rather listen to you, but I KNOW Elvis belongs there.
You can’t have the Beatles and Stones. They traveled too much of the same ground. You have to choose.
Dylan is the father of all folk rock, and allowed grown ups to keep listening.
James Brown is the godfather of so many other genres now. And how can you not have a black man?? He’s clearly a different branch than the other 3, but we wouldn’t have so much other music without what he did.
I’d love to have someone from the 1977-1979 class, but there’s just not room.
Sorry Stones. Too bad you are 1B instead of 1A.
Led Zeppelin, hands down.
Chuck Berry will be working camera in the ladies room at the monument so you can visit him there.
The Teddy argument is bollocks. It’s not meant to be a monument of 3 worthy heads, and one junior member. Maybe in the year 2525, there will be an even more worthy rock head, but we should try to put the most worthy heads up there as we understand it today.
Of course it’s bollocks, but that’s not the only bollocks-laden suggestion to date. Here’s my beef with James Brown, and it’s real simple: JAMES BROWN “ROCKS,” BUT HE IS NOT A ROCK MUSICIAN. If we’re going to include soul musicians who move rock audiences then we also need to consider jazz musicians like Coltrane and Miles and maybe even BigSteve’s Congolese cats. Sly Stone was a rock artist. Prince is a rock artist. Hendrix, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, and The Busboys were rock artists. James Brown is the Godfather of SOUL. Go to any record store and unless someone has badly misfiled the records, you will not find JB in a Rock bin. I’m sure there’s some equivalent monument that needs to be constructed to recognize soul’s most influential artists, but sorry, James.
This was my thinking on the issue, chickenfrank. I just feel that The Stones and The Beatles are cut from the same cloth essentially, although their paths diverged once the 70s rolled in. I do look forward to Mod’s statements for The Stones inclusion.
My hesitation for JB is still that the argument can be made that he is not “rock” in the truest sense. His influence is undeniable and he is every bit as important as The Beatles and Elvis as far as influential artists. I’ll put Dylan in there, too for the same reasons.
If the monument is designed to honor the most influential members of the popular music community, I’d have to go with Dylan, The Beatles, Elvis, and JB. I love The Mighty Chuck and Buddy Holly is the bee’s knees. I defy anyone here to listen to the three discs of the Chuck Berry Chess Box and not hear the entire history of rock, but his limitations are obvious, while the four artists that I and chickenfrank have nominated trancend limitations. Chuck is important. Buddy is important. There are lots and lots on important folks that can be brought into this, but we are talking Mount Rushmore of Rock! These four artist go above and beyond just the music they created. They influenced style, pop culture, and every day life. These four seem to permeate in everything we listen to and watch.
I can be swayed on JB, make no bones about it. I really look forward to the pro-Stones argument and will likely concede that one. But The Beatles, Elvis, and Dylan are musts.
TB
Did Elvis rip off the black man or does the blame lay with the audience who couldn’t stomach a black man singing but were okay with a white guy singing the same song? I think this is open to debate. But it is no reason to exclude him. Every musician in that second generation seems to have a story about seeing Elvis on the Ed Sullivan Show. He should be the first one on the monument.
Even as a Stones guy, I can acknowledge that the Beatles deserve a place before the Stones (assuming that we are allowing 1. non-Americans, and 2. non-founding fathers). I hold their contributions to be self evident.
The Stones epitomize rock and roll and set basically the template for rock (not pop) bands that came after. While there is certainly a case to be made for Dylan, we’re discussing Rock here. Where is his Honky Tonk Women? His Jumpin’ Jack Flash? Sure Like a Rolling Stone is a great call to arms but its greatest component is the lyrics. His will be the first visage to grace the Songwriter Mount Rushmore for sure but Rock? I think he gets nudged out.
I originally made a case for Little Richard. His performances and persona were unhinged in the best possible way. His constant self promotion over the past 50 years or so is annoying for sure but the guy has really been underappreciated. That said, I’m changing my vote for the number 4 spot to Chuck Berry. That riff that he stole for Johnny Johnson is a rock cornerstone, and his lyrics perfectly capture the ideals of Rock in its pre-political/revolutionary days (girls, cars, rock). If we can forgive the Beatles for Maxwell’s Silver Hammer, surely we can forgive Chuck for My Ding A Ling, right?
Apologies to James Brown, but, again, this is about Rock. He is too much in his own category to be included here.
Elvis, Beatles, Stones, Chuck Berry – Who’s with me?
Mod, you beat me to the punch as I was typing my previous thread. And your point is exactly why I can get over JB’s disclusion from this great monument.
TB
BigSteve’s raising of The Teddy Roosevelt Exception leads me to believe that he’s trying to launch a stealth campaign to get Jack White a spot on the mountain.
I would encourage those hung up on the early days/pioneers of rock issue to check out the old Once And For All: The First Rock & Roll Song thread from February. I’d like to read your thoughts about what was discussed there.
Some other thoughts on this particular discussion:
-If you’re putting Hendrix on, I think we have to assume that Jerry Lee Lewis wouldn’t be on the mountain, or you’d have to have someone’s head between them.
-What if you sculpted one of the heads so that no one could tell if it was supposed to be Bo Diddley or Buddy Holly?
-Lemmy is the Chester A. Arthur of Rock.
-This “whole band is one of the heads” concept is garbage. If nothing else, it’s structurally unsound. We haven’t advanced so far in dynamite-sculpting technology that you can put four people’s heads in the place where one giant head should be.
Look, as one of, if not the staunchest McCartney backer in the Hall, it isn’t easy for me to say this, but for Mount Rockmore purposes you put Lennon’s head up on that mountain.
Your only other option is admit that the Beatles deserve all four slots, and you recreate the famous lost concept for the proto-Abbey Road Everest album cover, where they get their own mountain.
-Whatever you all decide on, I’ve been informed that Chubby Checker has asked that he have his own Colossus of Rhodes-like monument that should be placed in front of the Mount Rushmore of Rock, obscuring as many of the heads on the mountain as possible.
“His influence is undeniable…”
Careful, TB. That’s shaky ground you’re on. It has to be more than influence. Eddie Van Halen’s singularly uninteresting parlor tick of a guitar playing style influenced countless guitar players and each and every one of them blows.
Also, then we’ll have folks (like me) trying to get the Velvet Underground up there.
Hold on, Alexmagic: Are you suggesting that Lemmy out-“Chester A Arthurs” Duane Allman? Preposterous, but I’ll post the link again and let the People decide.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/presidents/chesterarthur/
Well, sure, if we talk strictly influential, we could have alundy list of artists who derserve a place. I’d be pushing hard for Big Star. I was only speaking of JB in terms of influence and general greatness.
Alot of influential people influenced crap, too. I guess it goes with the territory.
TB
I agree that bands are problematical for a Mt. Rushmore monument. My thinking is still evolving, but right now I’m thinking Presley, Berry, Lennon, Hendrix.
Les Paul
I’m trying to play catch up and won’t get back to reading everything for some time, but if this hasn’t been addressed yet, can someone HONESTLY tell me what James Brown’s important contribution to ROCK music has been? Beside Sly Stone, what ROCK musician has successfully incorporated JB’s rhythmic techniques – the emphasis on the “1,” the proto-rapping, etc? Are you trying to tell me that JB belongs on the Mount Rushmore of Rock for having inspired Red Hot Chili Peppers?
More later. I’ve been thinking about this stuff for some time.
Oh, and I just caught out of the corner of my eye an objection to including bands?!?! This is the Mount Rushmore of Rock, which is heavily dictated by bands. The Engraved Ivory Handle Tableware Set of Singer-Songwriters can be for another discussion. John Lennon on his own is nowhere near the equal in influence as John Lennon as part of The Beatles. The sculptors are highly skilled. They can work with the contours of full-band stone-cutting, if it’s an aesthetic concern that you have.
I have no problems with the Rock Stonewall Jackson carving, provided it comes after the Rock Frederick Douglass carving.
i don’t believe the beatles or the stones or any other english band should be an an AMERICAN rock monument no matter how good they are. we need some ruling on this – can English bands qualify Mr Mod?
Mod, Tell me you did not just whip out your hyphen! If we’re parsing bands into hyphen rock, then let’s drop the pop-rock of the Beatles, the folk-rock of Dylan and just start carving the 11 different members of the Stones. They are clearly the greatest “Rock-and-Roll” band of all time. Or carve Zep as the greatest Rock band of all time. Consider what would have been played on WFIL, WIBG, WOGL, etc. They all get played next to each other.
We can play the “this guy led to that guy” so the first guy is more important game. Take a look at the entire connected chain of rock and roll, and select the biggest, best, most important links in the Chain (cue John McVie). Some links you have to have or it snaps. The Godfather’s link is huge.
Let the record show that coming out of our sub-committee meeting, TB and I have a tentative agreement on all 4. Show me another 2 lists that have all the same heads!
In looking at the original list of three that Mr. Mod listed, The Beatles, Stones and Dylan, all of them had a significant impact over a period of time where their music was transformed radically. If there is agreement on the original premise, we need to find someone that stayed at or near the top over a long period of evolving work. Also, I recommend we count by albums, not years. A group that lasts as long as the Beatles in this era would generally release and EP, two albums and a Hits collection.
The real question is “Who is on the Mount Rushmore of Yacht Rock”
By the way guys I had to share this with you: For the first time in years I got teen level excitement about a show: I just got tickets to see The Pogues in Seattle at a great venue (Showbox SoDo). As a bonus, The Pogues are one of the few bands I listen to that my fiance actually likes..so the future Mrs. NorthVanCoveMan will be coming too…
I’ll ask again: Can a Townsperson really show me the positive influence of James Brown on ROCK music? I was not parsing by hyphens when disputing JB’s claim, Chickenfrank. I feel that he is not a rock artist of any stripe, and I also feel that he’s not nearly as influential, in a positive way, as we’d like him to be. The people who best incorporated JB’s influence, usually by focusing on one element of his sound, are solid, second-rate artists: Chic, the best rappers, etc. Those who fail to come anywhere close to matching any one of his key musical contributions come off much worse. In other words, isn’t JB so much his own guy that he really couldn’t have much influence? I think he’s more like a Ben Franklin of Rock.
NVC man, I hope she doesn’t find Shane attractive cause that would mean she has terrible taste in men.
Opened a show for whatever Shane’s group was in the 90s (the Popes??) and you would not believe the variety and amount of booze they had in their dressing room. I’m drunk remembering it.
I remember visiting you backstage at that show, chickenfrank. Wasn’t Shane literally throwing up before hitting the stage? I can’t believe that guy’s alive.
ChickenFrank,
Even with his new teeth (!) Shane looks one degree warmer than a corpse..
You have all these bands bringing the Noise. Who’s bringing the Funk? Just because all the people he let into the party aren’t as GREAT as he is, doesn’t lessen how GREAT he was. You could argue putting Michael Jackson up there. No thanks, but there is no MJ without JB. JB allows us to listen to music and dance with “women”. Remember them. Or is this an edition of For Headphones Only.
Yacht Rock: Cristopher Cross, Jimmy Buffet, Air Supply, and Pablo Cruise.
I’m excited for you, North.
I’m not disagreeing with The Stones’ inclusion here. And, as Mod pointed out: It’s for Rock, not soul or jazz. This is the precise reason I can be swayed on JB’s inclusion or not.
My own personal “Holy Trinity” of all-time great, influential, all-that’s-holy, runs-the-gamut of popular music would be Elvis Presley, James Brown, and The Beatles. I personally feel that most popular music from the last 50 years can be traced directly to these three. I know it can be argued that this begat that one and so forth, but I think that these three are the least common. I know Chuck and Buddy gave us The Beatles. I know that black Blues artists and country singers gave us Elvis. But, I also know that Elvis put this “race music” and his own personal style blew the thing up. The Beatles are bigger than Chuck because they are more than just Chuck. The beauty of that band is that they like musical sponges that soaked everything in and spit it back out with their own unique stamp. Sure, they were playing “American” music, but they gave it back to us tenfold. JB INVENTED a genre, which is pretty cool. This why these are my own Trinity.
I adore all things Dylan. He changed alot of things about music, too. Perhaps I should rethink this Trinity thing and try to make it a Quad-something-or-other and include Dylan.
But, if we can agree that funky soul music does not “rock,” then I am all about The Stones. I’m waiting for Mod’s argument.
My own Rock Rushmore stands as Beatles, Dylan, Presley, and Brown.
TB
Couldn’t you say that James Brown inspired people in all genres to tighten up and emphasize the beat? Maybe his influence is so pervasive, all-encompassing and woven into the fabric of what we listen to that we too easily ignore it. I’m talking about all sorts of bands that get talked about around here — Led Zep, the Attractions, Mick Taylor-era Stones.
One of the band members was vomiting in the bathroom right before hitting the stage, but I’m not sure who it was. As you know, you can’t really dust for vomit. Maybe The Pogues should pass out plastic sheets to the front row like at a Gallagher show.
“JB INVENTED a genre, which is pretty cool.”
That is cool. Nobody’s denying JB’s contribution to popular music. But this is about Rock, and JB ain’t rock.
I agree with the Mod’s Ben Franklin analogy. JB can be on the Mt Rushmore for Iconoclastic Geniuses Who Don’t Really Have Peers. Honestly, Dylan could be on that one too.
Elvis, Beatles, Stones and Chuck!
For visuals, I’d go with Garth Hudson, Zappa, Johnny Rotten making his Kee-ra-zee face, and Janis Joplin.
I think this also might be a good time to come up with some kind of morphed Beatles/Stones composite that can stand in as abbreviation for “have Beatles/Stones argument to no great point again, and move on.”
To make the monument as odd as the first one, it should just have Don Kirshner, Dave Geffen, all those execs. They look more weasly-presidential than most musicians.
4 Rock Acts for The Monument? Louis Jordan is down in the hallway by the gift shop in the Thomas Paine Is Part Of The Story, But We The People Mostly Don’t Know Why on the way to the loo. So Hendrix, is there, for me. Beatles, possibly with the above-mentioned morphing Stones mutation. James Brown would be the first to curse you out for calling his music “rock.” Zep, for me. Not so much because they’re “better”, but because they’re so damn “rock.” If the monument were done in 1976, the last act would be Boston.
Mod
While we have had some very fruitful discussions about this Mount Rockmore issue, I feel like we have not gotten any closer to deciding who is the real Chester A Arthur of Rock.
Any chance you could set up a poll with pictures of Lemmy and Duane Allman?
ELO, Prince and ZZ Top. The fourth spot should probably go to Jason Falkner. That ought to make Mod’s day.
Oats, among the rock bands you suggested, only Led Zeppelin has any JB influence. Good effort, but no dice!
Thank you, cdm.
I’ll be back in a couple of hours with some thoughts on my rationale, the British Invasion Issue, why folks are willing to sacrifice The Stones, and more. I’m sure you’ll have all sorts of treats for me! It’s cool seeing all the points of view that I had not imagined developing from this thread.
Not that I am pulling out my chisel anytime soon, but has anyone thought of the logistics of this? Is the Beatles “face” a morphing of all of their faces like that Godley and Cream video? Or is it four little faces taking up one spot?
I’m resting my case. If the artist was played on popular radio where you heard all the other artists, he’s in the mix. This is Obama Nation. Y’all are hiding behind your hyphens.
The Stoneatles, Elvis, Dylan, JB.
By Obama Nation, are we referring to the “Funky President?”
TB
I bought the remastered version of Black & Blue last week, and I’ve been waking up with Hot Stuff stuck in my brain all week. The Godfather definitely influenced the Stones. The Who too, though that was the pre-funk JB.
I spot an implied hyphen in your Mount Rushmore, Chickenfrank!
The Stones and The Who were “influenced” by JB, BigSteve? Influenced, rather than “fans of?” I don’t know. Sure, if you want to count a couple of Stones songs like “Hot Stuff” for being “funky,” you can make your case, but I’d say they were just as much influenced by the likes of funky Stevie Wonder, who opened for them a few years before Black & Blue, reggae artists, and their usual sources of underground R&B artists, like Don Covay. I don’t know.
As for The Who and their JB covers, beside the fanboy cover aspect, what on earth did they get from JB’s music? It seems to me that they abandoned their “Maximum R&B” as soon as anyone beyond pimply British kids held them to their claim. All that said, the early JB influence you came up with is better than what I feared: an influenced expressed in “Eminence Front.” Yikes!
Hrrundi, now you funny too!
General Slocum, I like your style – and it’s good to see someone here with the balls to nominate Led Zeppelin for a spot.
So a couple of things I’ve been meaning to catch up on…
I’m shocked by efforts to limit this monument to American artists, or to put a cap on British Invasion artists. Although this is a U.S. National Park Service initiative, the monument is meant to serve the Rock Nation. The Rock ‘n Roll Hall of Fame, for instance, doesn’t put a cap on second-rate, 1960s-era Atlantic Records artists from the the UK.
I’m also shocked by the willingness some Townspeople have shown to dump The Rolling Stones! I have some thoughts on this matter that run deeper than the opinions expressed to date. Does anyone want to cop to dropping The Stones to help avoid us ending up with too-obvious a monument to Rock? I mean, no one but butcher pete is willing to drop The Beatles, and although a couple of Townspeople have danced around the issue, it’s WAY UNCOOL to drop Dylan. Beside, if we drop Dylan we may have no American rock artists on the monument past the 1950s. Does even the most ardent Beatles fanboy really think that The Beatles’ accomplishments “cover” those of The Stones? Come on, we’re talking about the band behind the legendary Exile on Main Street. Like you, I’m sure, I’m awaiting 2000 Man‘s take on this.
Sorry, but if this is a government project there are going to be quotas and set-asides. If you only have four slots, you don’t use up two of them with 60s British beat groups.
Here’s a radical idea. Neither the Beatles nor the Stones. Let Bob Dylan represent white rockers born in the 40s. Keep Elvis and Little Richard (his hair would look great in granite, and he’d reduce the testosterone overload). Maybe Prince could be my Teddy Roosevelt.
The Stones should absolutely be included. I did say that the Beatles should get there first but there is room for them both. Get rid of Dylan for the reasons I mentioned below.
All the Stones? I don’t know if I can get behind a Mt. Rushmore that has no time for Dylan or JB, but makes room for Bill “Monkey Grip” Wyman.
As you can see from the artist’s drawing of the proposed monument, Oats, the tongue logo may be used to represent the Stones. I guess the artist agrees with my points on Mal Evans having more Rock Super Powers than the Lesser Stones.
cdm, Dylan needs to stay. Along with his rebel style and key role in drug culture, would anyone have ever taken rock lyrics seriously without him?
Given the original three provided, and the assumptions that would entail, I say Led Zeppelin is the fourth Rock Rushmore inductee. Elvis and Chuck Berry hearken back to an earlier time, the pre-ROCK era, Rock’n’Roll. Dylan, Beatles and the Stones are founders of the Rock era, leading the transition from the previous Rock’n’Roll era, and Led Zeppelin as the crowning achievement. Isn’t the original list pretty much the definition of that much disparaged “Rockist” label? Isn’t Led Zeppelin the one addition necessary to ensure that about one fourth of the covers of Rolling Stone magazine feature one of our granite heads?
And as disturbed as I am adding another English group, not to mention one that I have virtually no taste for, don’t give me those Kinks or Who arguments; they don’t have the same gravitas, the same plumb obviousness.
Where’s Can to break up all this tired rockist drivel?
Is that you, Links?! If so, welcome home the tired stranger, the prodigal son! Kill the fatted calf, for he who was lost is found again! Yay, Links Linkerson!
My two cents: Elvis, Dylan, Lennon (representing The Beatles), and Hendrix.
Hendrix is provides the electric guitar hero component.
Of course the basic problem here is that there isn’t a clear fourth or else we’d all already know. The Who or Kinks don’t make it; Hendrix or Zeppelin don’t quite make it; the 50s guys are another thing entirely and don’t belong here; JB isn’t a rock and roll musician in any narrow sense. Nobody belongs in the fourth spot, and that’s the plain truth of the matter.
Still, of all the offered choices, only Elvis is as LEGENDARY and broadly accepted as the other three. I don’t think that ultimately we’re talking pure musical achievement here; I think we’re talking that plus social status. Can’t get on Rushmore until somebody elects you President.
Maybe it is us the fans that make up the fourth face. Maybe the fourth face should be a mirror so that we can see our reflection as we do in the music we love.
Maybe, just maybe.
Or maybe it should be The Nuge! Wang dang.
Mr. Mod, you are resting your argument for the Stones because they are the “band behind the legendary Exile on Main Street”?
Is that the 2 LP version or the EP version?
The way I figure it, you need Elvis, someone black, someone British, and someone pretty influential but ultimately not that exciting.
I like the Stoneatles because you really have to put all that stuff together. Might even have to be the Kinkstoneatles, or a Union Jack. Point being, they’re a mush. In two hundred years the Beatles and Stones will be as indistinguishable as Grover Cleveland’s discontinuous terms.
I like Little Richard for the black spot, but there’s a risk here: too close to Elvis? I don’t think so, but in the same vein you’d never get to put both Richard and Jerry Lee up there.
Not an issue, so let’s move on.
For the Ultimately Unsatisfying spot, the Teddy Roosevelt Prize was first going to go to Eddie Vedder. He’s later, he’s got venomous fans. Bono could go here, too, but they’re both a bit too young, more Franklin than Teddy. Going back further, Alex Chilton is more like a Kennedy.
I think it should be obvious that when it comes to rockers who did the Teddy thing and cut a wide National Park-like swath through the country, delighting young and old alike, tossing off the occasional rejoinder or quip that set the press alight, the only choice to be made is: Jerry Garcia.
In all honesty, I don’t know (or, dare I say… care?) who the first three Mt. Rockmore faces ought to be. But I *do* know who the fourth face *must* represent:
The Tomb Of the Unknown Garage Band
I am very serious about this.
HVB
The last few thoughtful posts do point out the flaw in a Mt. Rushmore of Rock. It’s just too limiting. Asking a parent to select his two best kids out of the 3 they have.
We would be better served selecting an MLB all-star starting 9 of Rock. Or like the NBA, the 50 greatest of all time. I trust that no one has the time to do 50, and if you do have the time, my sympathies to you.
Comparing TR to Jerry Garcia is inspired.
Is the Nuge the George W Bush of rock? Ultra-conservative, too full of himself, completely clueless, destructive to the nation of rock. Probably fun to have a beer with, but you don’t want him running your band.
To be honest, I might be more willing to out Dylan over The Stones. I just want someone to make a solid argument for The Stones. I can certainly get behind The Beatles and Elvis is a no-brainer for me. If the remaining spot is left to one and the three are The Beatles, The Stones, and Dylan, then the answer will be Elvis Presley. Without a doubt.
TB
I’m getting a lot of off list support for Ted Nugent.
I’m on team Sammy, if only because the only rock artiste I can imagine sanctioning the defilement of a mountaintop to celebrate his or her rockliness would be Uncle Ted.
I think Nugent would be the Ulysses S. Grant of rock. Both had their vices, I’m willing to bet both have killed people with a sword and Grant’s scandal-ridden years in the White House probably set the precedent for the Nuge’s questionable choices in regards to Damn Yankees and that supergroup TV show with Sebastian Bach.