So my latest personal rock project is quite possibly the nerdiest thing I’ve done yet: The History of British Rock, According to Me. It’s currently five volumes of CD-length iTunes playlists. It’s also a work-in-progress, so I’m not ready to share the full track listing. However, I need some feedback from discerning rock-o-philes such as yourselves. I’m a little unsure what to do about bands from other countries who resettled in England at some point.
I’ve decided that The Pretenders and My Bloody Valentine belong in this collection. But what about the following acts?
’60s-era The Bee Gees
The Jimi Hendrix Experience
Nick Cave (The Birthday Party, The Bad Seeds and/or Grinderman)
The Go-Betweens
(It’s too bad Links Linkerson, with his exacting standards of chronology and classification, continues to eschew this mutation of RTH. I just may have post a query in the RTH basement.)
RTH, I Need Your Help!! The Great 48, alexmagic, berylant, Mr. Moderator, saturnismine, hvb and everyone else, please let me know your feelings. Homefrontradio, surely you must have an opinion to share about the three Australian-based acts.
Although Hendrix launched his career from England, I’m not willing to concede him to the British music scene. Following the launch of the Jimi Hendrix Experience, I would argue that Hendrix immediately declared his allegiance with the US of A. His breakthrough live performance was on US soil. He’s forever identified with an NYC studio. He inspired Eric Burdon to move to San Francisco and become African American. I don’t think of Jimi as a relocated British rock artist the way I do Chrissie Hynde or The Bee Gees.
In the engineer/producer category, however, there’s that Eddie Kramer guy, a New Yorker, I believe, who became British while working with Hendrix, Zeppelin, and others.
The Bee Gees period.
Not the 60’s Bee Gees. Disco is an offshoot of rock and soul music, just as rap and hip hop are. The band didn’t break up in 1975 and start a different band. Neither did they stop making rock/pop music, they just focused on dance music for a while.
Just like The Stones.
Jimi, no.
Hate to say it, but Nick Cave(any version) no.
Don’t know The Go Betweens.
Also:
The Bee Gees are from the Isle of Mann.
England
Kilroy,
I like both ’60s and disco Bee Gees. I asked about ’60s Bee Gees since that stuff was recorded in the UK. Good point, however, about their actual UK roots.
You say “no” to Nick Cave? Why? The Birthday Party relocated to England to make their mark, and he currently resides there as well, I believe.
Also, I remembered I also wanted to ask everyone here if AC/DC belonged in my compilation. After all, The Young brothers, Bon Scott and Brian Johnston were all born in the UK.
The current score
Bee Gees: Yes
Hendrix: No
Nick Cave: ?
Go-Betweens: ?
AC/DC: ?
Bee Gees definitely count, being born in the right area. I was about to question the validity of your entire project for not asking about AC/DC, but luckily, I previewed this reply and just saw you mention them. Consider questioning the validity of your project on hold…for now.
For the Experience, just cheat and throw “Little Miss Strange” on.
Eddie Kramer is actually from South Africa and then re-located to London, now lives in L.A. Just so’s you know.
AC/DC totally do NOT count. Come on, man — what kind of uber-nerd classifies their music as British just because the members were raised to pap-spewing babyhood in England and Scotland? Pshaw! They’re the Thunder From Down Under!
60’s Bee Gees: Though some of their early Aussie beat stuff is pretty swell (I’m still trying to track down the tune “Coal Man”–anyone have it?), I’m voting to keep them on the British island by virtue of their full cheesy embrace of effete UK psychedelic pop.
As for Hendrix, he’s so iconic, it’s a tough call. I think of the first two albums as British. The Chas Chandler influence, perhaps, distilling everything down to it’s 3 minute essence, very UK pop songwriting sensibilities beneath the mindblowing guitarwork. Lot’s of Who-isms. Right up there in the psych-pop pantheon with other UK bands of the 1966-7 period. By Electric Ladyland, he gets back to US soil with bluesier constructions, jams, a Dylan cover, with only a brief hint at the pop hit machine of the first record, namely “Crosstown Traffic,” which is pretty much a funky R&B number.
The Go-Betweens will always be associated with Australia, despite their stay in the UK. I don’t recall them being thought of otherwise during that period.
The Easybeats came to the UK and recorded a bunch of great songs right off the bat when they got there (“Friday on My Mind”, “Made My Bed, Gonna Lie in It”), but for some reason they’re always thought of as Aussie. Maybe because they stuck to their more rockist roots and not really straying into full-bore psychedelia. But I’m not sure I can answer the question Why the Bee Gees and not the Easybeats?
By the time of their disco period, The Bee Gees no longer answer to the Queen in any way whatsoever. They become an American band, for all intents and purposes.
AC/DC should be judged solely by Angus’ schoolboy outfit. I’m not fit to judge what school system that’s from, but that should settle all debates.
Lots of Pince Nez opportunities here!
Easybeats: Australian, full-on. Aside from the fact that they only had *one* song that cracked the pop charts anywhere other than in their adopted homeland — Harry Vanda and Dick Diamonde were *Dutch*, fer chrissakes!
To me, it boils down to where you basically *say* you’re from.
This thread reminds me of something my mother says about food that’s been in the fridge for a while: “when in doubt, throw it out”.
1. Bee Gees — yes, if you restrict it to the ’67-’74 era.
2. Hendrix — If the Pretenders count, then Hendrix counts, plain and simple.
3. Nick Cave — No. The Birthday Party maintained a strong Australian identity, and Cave actually lived in Berlin for much of the Bad Seeds era.
4. Go-Betweens — This is the toughest of the lot, and I honestly don’t know how I feel about it.
5. AC/DC — bollocks.
Oats, your definition of what you mean by British Rock isn’t made clear, which is weak, although of course you may have left it out on purpose, which is weak.
Several possible definitions have already been floated here:
–Bands with key members from the UK.
–Bands that contribute something to those sounds in rock that might be specifically British.
–Bands that were key to British scenes even if their songs are based in American music.
Fess up, my friend, and say what you were looking for.
You guys are always reading my minds. It’s scary. Just last night, I was listening to to Thunderclap Newman’s Hollywood Dream. I offered a friend of mine five grand if he could guess what was on my player. I gave him hints that they were British. I statrted giving hints bu rattling off every British band that I know of. I came oh so close to including Hendrix’s little band. I just couldn’t do it. To stay on subject (plus to plug that Thunderclap Newman record, which I love), I just couldn’t include Jimi in a British collection. Although, I could be swayed. As 48 said, if you can include The Pretenders, by that justification, then Hendix is fair game. I’m very much on the fence with him.
The Bee Gees are a definite. Those first three to five records are as British as they come. They could have easily been successors to the great Beatles. They gave it up for the disco, but who knows? Maybe The Fanbs would have gone disco given the chance. The Stones did it. So did Kiss. I digress…
AC/DC, the Thunder From Down Under, does not certainly qualify. They are too closely asscociated with Australia.
TB
Sorry about all the typos previous. I will proof everything before I send. I think you guys got the point, though.
TB
Hey mwall, please pay particular attention to the According to Me subtitle — it’s crucial. I’m really only concerned about the artists cited in this post. They each may have differing reasons to possibly classify them as British. I want to which of those reasons are, simply, good enough,
So, let’s recap.
The Bee Gees- ’60s-era, definitely.
Nick Cave- No.
AC/DC- Sounds like a “definitely not.” Fine with me.
Go-Betweens- This has stumped everyone so far. Really curious to hear Berlyant’s thoughts.
Which leaves us with Hendrix, so far the most controversial possible candidate. I still feel like in some ways Chrissie Hynde assimilated herself into the UK in ways Hendrix didn’t. It’s a tough one. While it’s an unfair question, given that she’s lived much longer than him, did he stay in England as permanently as she seemingly has since the late ’70s?
No, not really. Remember, the Electric Ladyland studio was in New York.
But you can’t discount Mitch and Noel, so I propose something akin to the Bee Gees: Jimi Hendrix was not British, but the Jimi Hendrix EXPERIENCE was a British band.
I wouldn’t put any of them into a History of British Rock. If we had the complete playlists you’ve compiled so far it might be easier to see what you’re trying to do.
I was trying to turn it around, but I don’t think there’s a comparable situation. Ray Davies I believe lives mostly in the US now. His last album was recorded in Nashville with American musicians. Does that make him American rock? I think not. Are there any artists who emigrated to the US as adults and made their initial impact here?
It seems to me that the only point of making a British rock compilation would be to focus on rock that was distinctly British, so I’d leave outsiders off.
Of course, if you’re already up to 5 CDs, you could be leaving yourself some breathing room. I assume you’re excluding the Irish? What about Scottish and Welsh rock?
It’s probably because I’m from Cleveland (or thereabouts), but The Pretenders sound American to me. I don’t care where the guys are from, it’s Chrissie’s show. East 55th and Euclid Avenue is an ocean and half a continent away from England. Cuyahoga Falls and Downtown Akron are solidly in the midwest US. I know the guys are from England, but Chrissie always says how great it is to be home when she plays around here, and she knows what’s going on here. If someone else wrote the words, then I’d feel I could let them be a hybrid, but they’re An American Band if you ask me.
BigSteve raises an issue that I should probably clarify. The comp is focusing on Great Britain — so I have been including Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as well as England.
Maybe it would simplify matters if I left The Pretenders off the comp. Nevertheless, can I get a little agreement about something inherently Anglo about the original configuration of the band?
Northern Ireland is part of the U.K,. but not Great Britain. Great Britain is just the one island.
All right, Oats, I’ll play. But only after I’ve pointed out the lameness.
Nick Cave and AC/DC no. Early Bee Gees, yes. Hendrix, no.
Go-Betweens: I’d leave them off simply because I wouldn’t want to hear them. Or maybe more significantly, I’m not sure what they would add that would matter enough to put them in the compilation.
The Great 48 said:
What kind of defense is that?!?! I mean, of course that’s part of what makes Rock Town Hall what it is, but let’s hear some “facts” in support of your big statement.
Well, it’s simple: he said that the Pretenders counted. The Pretenders were 1/4 American. The Jimi Hendrix Experience was 1/3 American. That’s not enough of a difference to make one of them eligible and the other not.
And Members of the Hall wonder why homefront is annoyed… we haven’t yet broken down the degree of Britishness here. Just for the record, I’m half Scottish, a quarter Irish and a quarter English. Were those British 2/3 of the Hendrix Experience really all British? Come on, let’s halve (purposeful spelling) some facts.
Jeezimy Crickets, what are you guys, the Eugenics Office of Musico-Racial Purity? No one’s talking about the music here. Hell, the dBs sound more British than AC/DC to me!
Hendrix’ first album sounds so American, and his voice was so dominant (his voice meaning his singing and his guitar and his writing) that when he changed to an American backup band later, his sound was more the same than it was different.
Mr. 48’s fractions would really resonate with me, except that they’re 63/75ths poo.
However, mad props for finding such a tiny crevasse of unexplored rock-nerdly ore as yet unmined.
I’d like to point out that with many casual British fans (i.e. may own a greatest hits, but not much else), that I know at least, of Hendrix assume/d that he was born in the UK in the same way that many Americans who are casual fans of Dusty Springfield assume she is from the Southern US.
If you are looking at it from a strictly sound point of view this doesn’t amount to much.
By the way Oats, I’m interested to know what more recent bands you’re including. Any of the Sunderland crowd? (Futureheads, Field Music, School of Language,etc?) Any Manic Street Preachers?
Oh, and not Brit related, but anyone else giddy about Dennis Wilson today?
Tvox:
60’s Bee Gees: Though some of their early Aussie beat stuff is pretty swell (I’m still trying to track down the tune “Coal Man”–anyone have it?)
Isn’t it on the sountrack album to the movie?
You know the one where C.Thomas Howell paints his face black so all his friends think he’s a real coal miner? (spkg of Rae Dawn Chong)
Why would I be giddy about Dennis Wilson today?
Ocean Pacific Blues is being reissued in a special edition including songs planned for the never released Bambu.
I been having that Dennis Wilson stuff, but it is exciting that it’s finally getting released for real.
Re: Dennis Wilson — will some intrepid, opinionated Townsman take it upon him or herself to explain what all the fuss is about? Berlyant sent me a few tracks from either one or both of these releases, but I didn’t get it.
And what I mean by “didn’t get it” is that I didn’t understand what the fuss was about.
Look, I’m just going by the parameters Oats set out in his original post. Yell at him, not me.
Here’s the thing, and I say this as one of the bigger Beach Boys fans around here: the Dennis Wilson album actually pretty much sucks. There’s some nice tunes and some cool mid-’70s arrangements, but his voice was shot to hell and he couldn’t write lyrics to save his life. But it’s been nearly impossible to find for years, and that makes people think it’s good. Now that this album is more widely available, look for its critical cachet to plummet rapidly.
2K Man said “… The Pretenders sound American to me. I don’t care where the guys are from, it’s Chrissie’s show.”
It’s the exact opposite for me. The Pretenders sound really British while Hendrix sounds uniquely American. Maybe it has something to do with the production and song structure. When I think of British pop, I think of impeccably clean, well written songs that are more brains than heart. In general, American stuff seems warmer and more visceral to me.
Also, it’s not about how many Brits were actually in the band or how long the person was in country. Chrissy Hynde seemed to have adopted England as her new home and then did her best to assimilate the culture. Hendrix always seemed double parked and as soon as he got what he was looking for (a deal and some recognition), he was out of there.
cdm, I guess it’s because Chrissie sings about where I live so often. They never really did any of those weird British Dance Hall things, either. But I’m sure I think they sound American because I know exactly where she’s talking about so often.
I think I may run over to The Hamburger Station in Cuyahoga Falls today, and eat some hamburgers in Chrissie’s honor. I don’t think she’ll mind, because I’m pretty sure there’s no meat in them, just mustard, onions, grease and tiny bun. Mmmmmmmm…..tiny bunnnnn….