Oct 172008
What’d I tell you about our friend, Links Linkerson? At the end of a busy day I just got notice from the basement that Four Tops lead vocalist Levi Stubbs has died.
I’m sure some of you are sick to death of the band’s oldies but goodies (greaties, in most cases), so here’s a hit from the ’70s that you may not be as sick of hearing and that was key to the formative musical years of myself and a young Townsman Andyr!!
He was a great man.
Temps or Tops? The Temptations had a lot more hits but for a single album best of, I think the Tops had the stronger album.
In fact, that Tops single LP might be the best best of of any Motown group. (How often do you see a sentence with two words repeated one after another like that?) Maybe Martha Reeves could match it.
Who wants to argue?
I usually don’t like to argue, but I will here. For me, Temps by far. They had more depth, more diversity. The Tops were pretty great, though.
I will ask, what is the great Four Tops album? I don’t own any full albums by the Tops.
Temps vs Tops is similar to Beatles vs Stones debates. Where you fall in the debate tells a lot about you. Are you sure you want to stick with Tops now, Al?
That is sad. He seemed to be a decent bloke. I’ll have to spin “Keeper of the Castle” tonight.
Hey Al, I have to go with the Temp’s on a single best of. No question. The Temps really grew as a band. Once H-D-H left Motown in the late 60’s, they became pretty irrelevant untilt their mid-70’s rebirth.
Mr. Mod, I agree with you, the Temps had more depth and more diversity. And Andy I agree with you that the Temps grew as a band. I’m just saying, take the Tops 10 best songs and they are better than the Temps 10 best songs. The Tops couldn’t fill up a second album and the Temps could fill the second and the third but that wasn’t my point.
Mr. Mod, I don’t own any non-comp type Tops albums. When I referred to a single LP I meant a single greatest hits LP.
Thanks for the clarification, Al. Should we work up a Top 10 for each group? Andyr and I could spearhead Team Temps. You could put together a squad for Team Tops. Then we could let The People decide. Could be fun.
Another *awesome* mid-70s Four Tops number. I absolutely love everything about this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfiJWPmjRIc
If it was the Tempts v. Tops, I would have to give it to the Temps, since they had a longer streak of hits & the Tops floundered a bit after HDH left Motown in ’68. However, to use a baseball analogy, if the Tempts were the Yankees of Motown, then the Tops were the ’70s Orioles or the Royals, pretty darn solid if you ask me.
I think that the Tops’ Greatest Hits is the perfect album for some funny reason.
RIP Levi Stubbs
I like the Temptations more for having a wider range of songs I love, but what the Four Tops did best they did better than anybody else: Those huge, bombastic songs like Bernadette, Reach Out and 7 Rooms Of Gloom, where they make the whole world’s on the line.
Top O’ The Tops
Baby I Need Your Loving
Ask The Lonely
I Can’t Help Myself (Sugar Pie, Honey Bunch)
It’s The Same Old Song
Something About You
Shake Me, Wake Me (When It’s Over)
Reach Out, I’ll Be There
Standing In The Shadows Of Love
Bernadette
7 Rooms Of Gloom
I’ll Turn To Stone
Walk Away Renee
Andyr, let’s write each other offline and come up with a Top O’The Temps.
Al, Andyr and I have put our heads together. Here are our dozen Top O’The Temps (in no particular order):
Get Ready
Ball of Confusion
I Wish It Would Rain
My Girl
(I Know I’m) Losing You
Ain’t Too Proud to Beg
Since I Lost My Baby
It’s Growing
Just My Imagination
Cloud Nine
Papa Was a Rolling Stone
Can’t Get Next to You
A great list. Here’s a quick take on my Top ‘O The Temps
I’m Gonna Make You Love Me (cheating a little with the Supremes also on this one)
The Girl’s Alright With Me
Girl (Why You Wanna Make Me Blue)
My Girl
Don’t Look Back
Ain’t Too Proud Too Beg
Beauty’s Only Skin Deep
I Wish It Would Rain
Papa Was A Rollin’ Stone
Psychedelic Shack
I Can’t Get Next To You
Standing On The Top
I’ve always loved that last one as much for the shock of a return to past glory after so many years.
Interesting how few we have in common.
I still think my Tops list is better than either Temps list. But looking at my two lists versus yours shows why I vote Tops. My Temps list is more of a classic soul-pop list. I love the Temps psychedelic soul period and it was certainly an important developmental step for black music but it’s a cut below the earlier stuff for me.
Of course, looking at all three lists, it’s clear we are just arguing over how many angels can do choreography on the head of a phonograph needle.
Al, I love a lot of your earlier Temps choices. Andyr convinced me that we go about 50-50 on the Whitfield stuff. Your expanded choices on prove how much better the Temps are:) I will say, you left off a couple of KILLER Tops songs from their post-Motown days. Were you bitter about their split from the label? Thanks for calling all these great song titles to the front of the Hall.
Andyr is ready to talk about all the Motown cast-offs who’d resurface in starring roles with other labels in the first half of the ’70s!
Tops? Temps? No disrespect intended to the recently departed but I’ll take Stax over Motown any day.
cdm, since I lean toward the pop side of soul, it should be no surprise that as great as Stax is – and it’s fantastic – it’s not even close in my mind, Motown is the tops (and temps and…)
Mr. Mod, I’ve already stated, and these lists show, that the Temps had many more four stars selections than the Tops.
Post-Motown, the Four Tops had more than a couple of great songs, just not this great.
I think my favorite post-Motown output from a Motown star is from Mary Wells.
cdm, you are right as rain! Stax rules!
Hey Stax lovers: it’s embarrassing. Start your own thread! 😛
Count me in as a Stax lover, although I also dig plenty of Motown. I think what the situation is that Motown from the beginning aimed for the Top 40 while Stax concentrated on R’n’B. Consequently, a lot of Motown now sounds like aural wallpaper from continued exposure from oldies stations while the Stax stuff still sounds fresh in comparison. Also, have you ever seen a Motown artist burn up a stage like this?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_juH0AHvwk
Here’s a big disagreement I probably have with more than Diskojoe among Stax lovers – and trust me, some of my best friends are Stax records: I think Stax records sound LESS fresh. The Stax-style arrangements have been done to death over the last 30 years. How many artists have dialed in the MEMPHIS HORNS? When an aging rocker wants to age gracefully, he goes Memphis (eg, Nick Lowe, who’s done wonders using those old devices). When some loser junkie like Cat Power finally cleans up a bit and joins society, she and her bandmates dial up the Memphis sound not Motown. (And don’t get me wrong, Welcome to society, Cat Power. Her music is MUCH better since she’s adopted the tried-and-true methods of Memphis records.)
Unfortunately, beside The Jam (“Town Called Malice”), Elvis Costello, and The Clash (“Hitsville, UK”), maybe the only artist to try to pull on Motown devices was Phil Collins. THAT’S what I think kills you guys, that and the fact that Motown was scrubbed-up pop music that wanted to be popular (no different than the aspirations of the Stax crew, by the way, but they didn’t have as strong a cleaning system).
Within those crafted productions is a world of cool arrangements. Had Motown been the work of white, suburban brothers who were abused by their father you’d be all over it. Few take points off the productions of The Beatles because they were so well crafted and because the lyrics were often about positive, idealistic things. Yeah, I know, a lot of you think the Stones are “cooler,” but how many of you are really uncomfortable with The Beatles? Not many.
I know a lot of you Stax fans also appreciated Motown, and I’m about to make a gross generalization/accusation, but to stimulate discussion I think it’s worth making: I think a lot of cool rock fans are troubled by the fact that the Motown artists do not live up to their notion of “real” black people. Motown’s got this “Uncle Tom” rep that can be troubling, but there are other ways to see the label’s push for assimilation that might help cool cats better appreciate what’s going on in the music. That and getting the image of Phil Collins far out of mind!
Not to take anything away from Stax, but don’t you see how 90% of the label’s output falls under one of two song templates: the “Midnight Hour” stomp and the showstopping 6/8 soul ballad? Where’s the “Standing in the Shadows of Love” or the “Reflections” of Stax? Where’s the Stevie Wonder or Marvin Gaye? Those two alone are TITANS? I love Otis Redding and Sam and Dave, but we’re talking Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen (ie, the groundbreaking, skywalking Motown) vs Karl Malone and John Stockton (hardworking, back-to-basics Stax). We might favor one style of play, but in terms of level of play there’s no comparison. Man, it’s a crock how little respect and love Motown gets around here compared with Stax. Who’s willing to show me the love?
Mr. Mod, this is the kind of post that makes RTH what it is!
I’m with you all down the line. The Beatles comparison in particular. The Beatles and Motown never don’t sound fresh. And it’s no exaggeration to say I’ve heard each 1,000s of times. They never diminish and I’m confident that I can hear them 1,000s of more times til I’m dead and gone and they will stay fresh (fresher than I’ll be).
(And as I’m at the moment listening to Sinatra, I’ll add Frank’s classic Capitol albums to the always fresh despite 1,000s of spins category.)
Stax hasn’t maintained this for me. Still great, really great but not as fresh. And I think you nailed that one, they had too few templates that they drew on.
Diskojoe did have the live bit right though. Motown is great fun to watch on those old clips, with the choreography and all, but they didn’t bring it live like Sam & Dave or Otis or others in the Stax family.
Where’s the “Standing in the Shadows of Love” or the “Reflections” of Stax?
How about “Sitting On The Dock of The Bay”, a song that many in Stax initially didn’t understand or even liked when Otis first came up with it.
Where’s the Stevie Wonder or Marvin Gaye?
How about Issac Hayes, who first pioneered the 70s soul album along w/Stevie & Marvin & won an Academy Award w/”The Theme From Shaft”, which was very influential in 70s soul. I also think that Otis Redding could have developed into a Stevie or Marvin if he had lived.
Mr. Mod, when I made the comment about Stax sounding fresher, I had the original songs in mind, although you’re right about the “Dusty In Memphis” syndrome that you pointed. Also, I have no hatin’ towards Motown at all. To bring this back to the subject of the original thread, I mentioned this earlier & I’ll say it again, I feel that the Four Tops Greatest Hits is the most perfect album that I have ever heard. Smokey Robinson was one of the greatest pop music lyricists. Also, it’s a great thrill to me to hear a obscure Motown song like “Take a Look At Yourself” by the Elgins, “Leaving Here” by Eddie Holland, “Love’s Gone Bad” by Chris Clark or even “Forever Came Today” by the Supremes because you can what Motown brought without the layers of repeated plays (a/k/a “The Big Chill” Syndrome). I’m not into that “Uncle Tom” socio-political jive. It’s the music & the songs for me. The reason I dig Stax is that it is part of the chain of music that has come out of Memphis from Sun Records to Big Star.
Mr. Mod wrote:
I would ask where’s the Rufus Thomas or Staples Singers of Motown? Where’s the Soul Finger or Crosscut Saw? The labels are not really that comparable, and fortunately we don’t have to choose between the two. Maybe Motown’s reach was broader, but at least no on on Stax ever recorded The Impossible Dream as the Temptations did. (At least I’m pretty sure they didn’t.)
Ah, Mr. Mod, playing the race card, eh? The armchair psychology is as amusing as it is misguided. Akin to a recent comment I heard by a right wing pundit who attributed Obama’s popularity to “white liberal guilt.” Maybe. On the other hand maybe some of us are just listening to the end result while ignoring the back story.
I’ve always preferred a less slick approach to music: Stax over Motown, Stones over the Beatles, almost everyone over XTC. Not to say that I don’t appreciate Motown (Heatwave is one of my all time favorite songs, I love Smokey, Marvin, etc), but I’ve been force fed this stuff my entire life and as a result, I could probably live without the Temps or the Tops. And I know I could live without the Supremes.
I did not like having to play the race card, but I thought it was worth throwing out there in case it applied to anyone. Although my generalizations are centered around perceptions of race, I’d say the reason I put it out there was more to combat my general belief that “mystique” over any topic can play too large a role in how we hear things. I’m sure I’ve got my blind spots to some area of mystique.
I do believe that Otis would have continued to progress and been a major force into the ’70s, Diskojoe.
But what about Scruff vs Gloss? That’s the real distinction. I almost always choose scruff
Yeesh, Mod. I appreciate the hard work your poor stubby fingers went through to type that Stax-versus-Motown diatribe, but, Lord! You got a lot of stuff WRONG.
Let me start with my most vicious put-down: your comment about Stax-lovers being driven by Liberal White Guilt Syndrome sounds an awful lot like the shit a certain Dylan- and VU-hating dude posts around here quite a bit. That guilt-by-association-with-presumed-retarded-fan-behavior stuff doesn’t fly in this Hall, brother. No matter *how* much you feel it.
For the record, I’ve never met a man with less LWG than Stax-loving ME. In fact (to pull a page out of pipe-tamping Dr. John’s book), you seem to be suggesting, in a roundabout matter, that you have to be black — or wish you were — to understand or appreciate Stax’s gritty, “soulful” vibe. As if white folks aren’t *meant* to really, truly “get” Stax music — which is why, presumably, we’re all supposed to like “whiter” Motown.
I applaud you for stripping down to the waist and picking up your shovel to get some serious work done here, but I gotta say I’m extremely unconvinced.
Your friend,
HVB
Hrrundi wrote:
No, my focus was on the converse, what drives so many music-loving dudes who could have a better appreciation for Motown to blow it off. I honestly meant to pass no judgment on why any of us love Stax. What’s not to love about it? If I heard knowledgeable rock fans dismiss Stax with regularity I’d come up with a creative way to poke at those people for dismissing it unfairly. My pokes here are all directed at the frequent dismissal of Motown thanks to The Big Chill, Phil Collins, and whatever other hang-ups might be lurking. I stand by my belief that, musically, Motown has a lot in common with the greatest of Thinking Person’s Rock bands. Only a complete asshole complains that The Beatles tried to make Top 40 records. Stick with me and my weird way of thinking. It may pay off yet.
Mod, I’m with cdm on the Motown thing. The slickness about it makes it easy for me to enjoy whenever I hear it, but less easy to really deeply want.
The preference for scruffy or slick can be cut and dried, or more complicated. But I’ll say this much: even though we might like it to be simply about personal preference, there’s an unavoidable value system at work. I think that’s true, even though the “white guilt” card is totally lame. Just to come clean on the race question though, I have to admit: a lot of white people bore the piss out of me. There, I’ve said it. Am I really the only one?
All that said, it’s very surprising that anyone would have to argue for the close connection of Motown to Thinking Music. Clearly it was a music very conscious about everything it was trying to do.
Okay, then what about the Thinking Music (Motown, prog rock, XTC) vs the Feeling Music (Stax, Replacements, Bon Scott era ACDC)? If that’s the criteria, I almost always choose Feeling Music.
I’m not getting into Scruff vs Gloss or Thinking vs Feeling. The categories can overlap. What I meant by “Thinking Music” was music that is self-consciously in pursuit of Intellectual goals. I lean toward a preference for the Intellectual. What’s great about Motown, for me, is that It’s got a great beat and you can think about it. For me, that’s the perfect mix.
I don’t want to start the Civil War here, but Motown is definitely Northern music and Stax is definitely Southern music, and that plays into the way people feel about this.
Cdm, according to BigSteve am I to suppose that you grew up on the south side of Haddonfield? 🙂
I think I know what you’re getting at, BigSteve. For me, Motown is city music. I don’t know if southern cities are any different, but Motown is definitely the sound of the old, industrial cities.
I had to look at a map to confirm but yes. South Jersey in any event. And aren’t you from North East Philly? This is all starting to add up.
My thrifting experiences tell me something interesting about the fact that DeeCee has always been a weird place that is neither of the South nor the North. When I find old soul 45s in this neck of the woods, it’s always a hodge-podge of deep south stuff from Stax, Malaco and others; a good slice of Motown, and a *heaping* helping of Philly wax. The Philly stuff was *strong* in the nation’s capitol.
I didn’t mean that you had to be from the South to get Stax, which is why I phrased it the way I did. Some people relate to music as a way to escape from their geography (I think I might fall more into that category), and some people experience music from a comfortable place inside their native geography. Some people have lived several different places and don’t have a home base in this sense. It’s not a simple equation.
I’m also interested in what Mr Mod said about the subsequent uses to which Motown and Stax have been put. It strikes me that Motown isn’t really a distinct sound, and it’s not really reproduceable. The examples given of a Motown influence seem to boil down to borrowing the rhythm of You Can’t Hurry Love. But the Memphis horns, the sound of the MGs rhythm section, or later the HI rhythm section, can be heard all over the place. This doesn’t make Memphis better. I just thought it was interesting.
And yes a southern city feels, and sounds, very different from a northern city. DC is southern in many ways — it is south of the Mason-Dixon line — and to a New England yankee it would definitely seem southern, but I feel like shares aspects of that Philly/Baltimore vibe. The huge influx of people from all over has diluted its unique character, or defined it I guess.
Ah, you guys know the saying about DC. All the hospitality of a northern city with all the efficiency of a southern one. That always seemed about right to me.
I am sad about Levi Stubbs’ passing. Not only is it one of my favorite Billy Bragg songs, but he also had a pretty up and down life; first getting cancer, then having a stroke, and only later passing away. Talk about getting through it only to punch it. He must have lived a pretty full life though, although I think I read that in later years of The Tops he had been replaced (right?). Two facts that I was surprised about and smiled over: 1. that he was the voice of Audrey the plant in Little Shop of Horrors (feed me seymour!) and 2. He was the voice in Captain N of Mother Brain…which I feel like I remember watching. But I digress. I love the Temptations more, although The Four Tops are great too. And growing up directly across from Detroit, I def. have a fondness for and love of Motown acts and the story, which also correlates to my other love: Northern Soul music.
hrrundi’s comments about what he found thrifting in D.C. was pretty interesting considering that Al Bell, who ran Stax from 1965-75, was a DJ in D.C. & played many Stax tunes on his show & he was also instrumental in geting Stax away from the classic sound & towards a more Motown-type of sound in its post-1968 output.