Sep 162009
Check out this 1981 performance by Kevin Ayers and John Cale. They don’t make ’em like that anymore, do they?
What I’d like to discuss is whether, aside from your personal musical tastes, this is a good or a bad thing. In other words, have any useful rock building blocks been abandoned along with this particular style of music and performance? In other words, have we thrown the baby out with the bathwater?
I’m not so sure I understand your question but I think they still make them like that. I just don’t think you find them in the same places as before. Or now there are too many of them and it’s hard to find the good ones or something like that.
There was recent piece in The New Yorker by Alex Ross where the following bit struck me:
“For a century or so, the life of a home listener was simple: you had your disks, whether in the form of cylinders, 78s, LPs, or CDs, and, no matter how many of them piled up, there was a clear demarcation between the music that you had and the music that you didn’t. The Internet has removed that distinction. Near-infinity awaits on the other side of the magic rectangle. Video and audio stream in from around the world…But these meandering journeys across the Internet soundscape can be taxing. The medium too easily generates anxiety in place of fulfillment, an addictive cycle of craving and malaise. No sooner has one experience begun than the thought of what else is out there intrudes. Putting on an old-fashioned disk and letting it play to the end restores a measure of sanity…Despite the fact that I now have forty days and eighteen hours of music on my computer, enough to outlast the Flood, I keep returning to a stack of favorite disks that I keep next to my stereo.”
I thought this fodder for RTH when I read it but couldn’t figure out how to get it in but it seems related here.
For me, there is too much music out there. Too much that I buy, too much (of the live concert sort) that I download, even too much that is recommended here. I want to listen to it all so I get it but there’s not enough time. And I dismiss much of it much too quickly. If something doesn’t hit me on the first listen, it’s likely not getting a second chance. Or I download, say, a Mott The Hoople concert from 1971, knowing I’ll only ever listen to it once no matter how much I like it.
But tomorrow I’m driving down to Philly and back Thursday. That’s eight hours and I could listen to some new stuff I’ve purchased but not had the opportunity to listen to yet. But I know I’m much more likely to dial up one of the old traveling favorites – the Beatles or Sinatra or Motown – as I know I love them, I know I never get tired of them, and I know they make the miles go by faster.
So, do they make new Kevin Ayers? I’d like to find them out since I love Ayers (let’s hear another Townsman say they have 14 Kevin Ayers CDs) but he hasn’t done anything worth anything in decades. I’ll bet there are dozens, even hundreds of pseudo-Ayers out there but where is the filter that will distinguish the pseudo-prime-Ayers from the pseudo-latter-day-Ayers?
I’ll be leaving in a month for three months in Italy. I’m looking forward to that for all the obvious reasons but there is another reason related to this thread (or at least my addition to it). I commandeered the free iTouch that came with the MacBook purchased for my daughter for college. I loaded it with 10 gigs of music that I’ve purchased over the last decade but rarely, if at all, listened to. That’s what I intend to listen to in Italy. And while I’m expecting to have enough time and Internet access to stay in touch with RTH I won’t be visiting dimeadozen and hope to wean myself from that temptation. If I’m lucky, I’ll return having found some new Kevin Ayers and having kicked some other time-consuming habits.
Mr. Mod, what elements of this song do you think were abandoned by the rock world? To me, this doesn’t sound all that different from the kinds of songs I get courtesy of the indie-rock-heavy KEXP Song of the Day podcast. I don’t know when this performance dates from, but there seems to be a similarity to Talking Heads, and they’re pretty influential nowadays.
It struck me as being both ROCK and sometimes uncomfortably ARTSY. I hear a lot of newer stuff with artsy influences but very little that retains the belief in the Power and Glory of Rock that I get out of this stuff. Even the way they dress gives the impression that they thought they had an obligation to ROCK a crowd. As with Talking Heads and the stunted influence they’ve had on today’s music, I guess it all gets down to my regretting the day rock “gave up.”
I should have written “muted influence” of Talking Heads rather than “stunted.” I think “muted” better gets at what’s on my mind.
That spangly jacket has been abandoned, except by singers dreaming of Vegas. I don’t think a rocker would even wear one ironically anymore, would he?
Mod, we’ve gone over this before. I don’t get your hangups about this notion that rock lost something way back when. And, moreso, Talking Heads wouldn’t even support this idea. Fear of Music, and Remain in Light exemplify what rock gains, as it mixes with new cultural shapes and expressions. Case in point: “Once in a Lifetime” is a brilliant combination of African chants, pulsing dance beats, and chainsaw Strat power chords.
I just realized I’ve been failing to distinguish between Kevin Ayers and Kevin Coyne for years. Right now I understand the difference, but because I don’t care enough about either one I assume I’ll go back to mixing them up at some point. Fortunately, this matters not at all and life goes on.
Dr. John, I don’t think you understand what I’m always getting at in this area. I’m sorry if I’ve never been clear. What I find so great about those two Talking Heads albums is that they did all that mixing and pushing of boundaries AND did so with a lot of confidence and commitment to communicating what they were doing to as broad an audience as they could. They were one of the last bands like this to operate in the mainstream before all such musicians were shoved into or shoved themselves into the indie rock ghetto. What I like about this totally silly, in many ways, Kevin Ayers/Coyne (now even I’m confused) and John Cale performance is that they’re doing this stuff with way more rock theatrics and pomp and circumstance than the music may deserve, but I find it engaging for taking this approach.
Maybe it’s the efforts at mach schau that music like this seems to lack today. I noticed the last time Wilco, a band that sometimes reaches musically in ways that interest me a little bit while not having any stage presence among their ever-expanding roster, donned Nudie suits last time I saw them on Letterman or wherever. They were still physically as boring as ever, but the suits made some effort to project their slightly progressive sound.
It’s not that I long for a return to full-blown schtick, like that band of 40 Minnesotans in brightly colored robes, but I like seeing some rock projection techniques employed to pump up music that at least interests me if not fully pulls me in.
The other issue we’re dancing around is that you can only put so many not-rock things into a rock song and still call it rock. Everyone has their own definition of how much that is, and how many hyphens are admissible outside of root influences, before the song should go into a different genre or no genre at all.
Mod, I think in the minds of many Spinal Tap et al makes it impossible to take any “rock projection techniques” seriously any more.
Any thoughts on whether Dungen counts as a recent band that’s both artsy and believes in the Power and Glory of Rock? They’re a band that at least needs to be discussed in this context.
I would wear that spangly jacket but I would not wear that scarf or roll the sleeves up. I’m not sure whether or not I would be doing it ironically.
I consider giving the People something to look at to be a crucial part of maching shau. A good look is better than a bad one, but a bad look is much better than no look at all.
You’re right about that feeling and its validity, Dr. John, but I honestly wonder if some innocence was lost in the process. For how much longer can bands get away without making an effort to project? Are you cool with mach schau-less rock ‘n roll through the rest of your life?
Mwall, all I’ve heard from Dungen is on record. It sounded fine to me, but I had trouble with the “projection” of the lyrics.
I’m toward the mach schaulessness (or machschauloskeit in Old High German) end of the spectrum, but I wouldn’t want to impose that approach on everybody. Some kinds of music are better unprojected.
The problem is that most rock projection techniques come off as too self-conscious, as “bad acting.” Let’s face it, without any sort of theatrical experience, very few can wing it in this manner.
I prefer the minimalist aesthetic perfected by the Ramones or the detached yet intense gestures of Sonic Youth.
I’m not sure I understand your point. Both the Ramones and Sonic Youth mach all kinds of shau. Very image conscious and very energetic performances.
Yeah, I’m piling on Dr John. The Ramones had one of the best versions of machen shau ever. They had a mandatory dress code AND hair style. The periodic coordinated march up and back to the front of the stage by Dee Dee and Johnnie was classic. They had a guy in a pin head mask wave a Gabba Gabba Hey placard on stage. Everyone of us would wear our guitar/bass at that ridiculous low level if we could figure out how to actually play it like that. That image was not minimalistic, it was cultured.
Good Doctor, it’s your move – or the move of your backers.
I’ve been looking at about six or eight Dungen live videos this morning. All of them ultimately lack enough mach schau to meet the Mod’s standards, I would say: there’s generally too much mellow, unassuming onstage behavior. I would say though that they’re pretty much a genuine art rock (actually, I would say, art pop) band with a lot of old school elements.
This video captures them not quite cutting it, in terms of this conversation, while nodding definitely in that direction:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hey5JOvnEiY
I think it would be worth it, though, to hear some close analysis of just where the band falls short in this video.
Man, you like that shit, Mwall? It sounds like a foreign high school band trying its hand at a Styx cover. The main problem with this band is greater than my not liking this particular song (I’ve heard other songs that aren’t so lame): you can’t fit even a brick sideways between the feet of the guitarist, bassist, and singer. There’s no way you can have a band with all three standing members holding their ankles and knees together like they’re holding in a pee!
No, I actually think that I don’t like it, live. I like their records pretty well. But I think this video has almost all the elements of your original video (arty breaks, some facial mugging) in this thread, but somehow doesn’t make it work.
Your quick response is the best news I’ve read all day, mwall. Thanks. I count on you to weed through this stuff. Yes, I do see what you’re getting at, especially regarding the application of these rock projection techniques to the equally pretentious art pop of the Ayers/Cale video used to kick off this discussion. My sense of world order has been restored.
Rock projection techniques are intended to call attention to the technical mastery of the performer (see Robertson, Last Waltz).
It’s a form of elitism which the Ramones are clearly against, trashing the idea that the stage is restricted to those with the proper musical credentials: anyone can get up there and do it. Sonic Youth were heavily influenced by this idea.
It’d be like comparing a stage musical to a happening.
Dr. John, from all accounts, the schtick to which The Ramones abided by to a T was NOTHING like a happening. Why must rock projection techniques ONLY be intended to call attention to the technical mastery of the performer? Why can’t they be used to call attention to the gang-like unity of the band as a whole, as it takes on The Man? I think most bands that use any type of rock projection techniques do so with a combination of purposes, not just to promote individual vs group dynamics. The point is, The Ramones couldn’t have been any less like a stage musical, or is that what you were saying?
Mod, your definition of rock projection techniques is getting increasingly vague. I’m not sure how any of this differs from “stage presence” or related terms.
I think the Ramones were definitely more like a happening than a stage musical: they were like controlled chaos.
I trust that The People understand me, Dr. John. I’m sorry we can’t seem to merge minds on this topic. Really, my question was meant to be innocent and not that complex: Is it for better or for worse that rock seems to lack the likes of Ayers and Cale trying to project their unpopular music through showbiz techniques? I bet we would agree that their effort is largely unsuccessful. I simply enjoy seeing them try and wish I could more frequently see bands TRY to project through more overt means.
But wasn’t a Ramones show like a stage musical in that it was pretty much exactly the same every night? I thought the point was that Sonic Youth are improvisers and thus more like a happening.
Actually, Ramones: the musical would be a pretty cool idea.
I’m sure you were joking but there’s a world of difference between Kevin Ayers and Kevin Coyne.
Saw somewhere else a discussion about musicians who paint. Coyne’s lived his final years in Germany where he was an accomplished visual artist. Surely moreso than most if not all of those mentioned.