In the introduction to a streaming audio of the new Arthur & Yu album, my good friends at Phawker wrote:
WARNING, ONLY HIT PLAY IF YOU LIKE: The Velvet Underground, Lee Hazlewood & Nancy Sinatra, Margo Guryan, Karen Dalton, Harry Nilsson, The Everly Brothers, Joe Meek, The Hollies, Serge Gainsbourg & Jane Birkin, Them, Bobbi Gentry, Leslie Gore, Velvet Underground, Skip Spence, Silver Apples, United States of America, Donovan, Leonard Cohen, The Soft Machine, Vashti Bunyan, Marianne Faithful, The Vaselines, The Flaming Lips, Neutral Milk Hotel, The Zombies, Nico, Tonight’s the Night, Don’t Look Back, All Things Must Pass — if not, we feel sorry for you.
Now, I know we’re all supposed to feel sorry for Mr. Mod’s goat having been got, but what about mine?
- Lee Hazlewood & Nancy Sinatra? Proto-Thrifty Music turd!
- Serge Gainsbourg & Jane Birkin? Merde!
- Bobbi Gentry? Yeah, I like big, lacquered hair too.
- Skip Spence? Bargain-bin keeeeee-raaaaaaaa-zzzzzzy!
I could go on, but how much longer do we have to live with having these third-rate, dollar-bin oddities pushed down our throats as serious influences by the Indie Rock Community? It’s like saying you books or movies are influenced by ’50s pulp fiction and kung fu movies. What’s it lead to? Tarrantino! We’ve fostered musical Tarrantinos long enough. Can’t these guys grow up and get into jazz or classical music already? It’s getting so I miss the days when every Tom, Dick, and Harry finally got around to discovering The Kinks’ golden age.
I’ll check out this album and report back. I encourage you to do the same, whether you fit this profile or not.
KingEd, you and I *reach* on this one. Brave and kudos to you for calling bullshit with extreme prejudice on these mediocre-at-best artistes. You’re forgetting Fapardokly, Jandek, and — it must be said — The Creation. I’m sure there are more of these supposedly “influential” third-rate rockers, and I’ll continue pondering.
But know this: the Thrifty Music series is *not* dedicated to discovering new Hazlewoods and Spences. It’s about how random garbage can inspire and open minds. Only rarely do I make claims that the Thrifty Music I find has any claim to being “great” at any level..
Other than that, I say: keep up the good work. Rock thanks you.
My man HBV, it’s rare that I feel bad about anything I say, but I feel horrible for having implicated your Thrifty Music seriees in a negative way. What I meant to say was that these artists have their merits in a Thrifty Music way, but unlike the way you treat your 25 cent finds, the proponents of this tired indie rock nonsense mark up the scratchy records to insane and dare I say immoral levels. Trust me: we are one on this issue.
I am with both of you on this one. Thanks, Ed.
I think you’re running the risk of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. That is, the strength of rock has always been its ability to assimilate unfashionable or “uncool” influences.
To limit the “acceptable” influences of artists is to make more probable a future of Beatles/Stones clones. No thanks.
By the way, the Arthur and Yu songs are okay, but I think the Skygreen Leopards do this soi-disant “freaky folk” thing better.
I was thinking along the same lines, dr. I don’t think we want a narrowly defined canon.
Also this list is not really an all-purpose indie rocker list of influence cliches. It seems tailored to this artist (lots of female vocalists for example).
I gather it’s the ‘you must like these’ attitude you disagree with, your highness, but surely that was tongue-in-cheeky.
May the golden egg be unbroken, if you’d like, but how about we bring in a new goose? Did I say anything about “acceptable” artists and Beatles/Stones clones? Not that I recall. The list, tongue in cheek or not, has become a cliched profile with little meaning. Name a Bobbi Gentry song beside her lone hit. Now name it in the same breath as any 3 songs by the Zombies, the VU, Flaming Lips, and Donovan. Try looking in the mirror while you do this. It’s pretty clear to me that some of these “influential” artists are nothing more than thrift store badges of honor, and these badges are badly tarnished.
I’m going to side with Dr. John here. About half the artists on that long list are ones I like a lot, or at least pretty well. Some I don’t know, and a few I know a little about and don’t like that much.
Sure, there’s an “If you’re cool, you’ll get it” attitude that’s sesriously offputting in the note. But I’m not sure your “If you’re cool, you’ll get it” response really does more than suggest that you’re just as much of a snob yourself. So what we have here is two snobs arguing over whose taste is REALLY good taste.
So admit it: you don’t hate the attitude, you just don’t like what they like. That said, I’m probably likely to side with 68% of your taste and 52% of theirs.
I agree with most of what’s been said here. But I *will* go to bat for Bobbie Gentry. Particularly in relief against the recent hubbub over Avril Whosit! Any buxom six-foot Vegas showgirl who has a graduate degree in philosophy, plays guitar, sings like a bluebird on Lucky Strikes and bourbon, and writes not only her own songs, but her own string arrangements as well, gets my vote. And she left the biz wihtout even becoming a junkie! Her greatest hits do include quite a few numbers superior to, in my mind, the one hit. Morning Glory, Mississippi Delta, Okolona River Bottom Band, &c. Good stuff. It is a shame, though having to navigate the nautilus shell of modren culture – which thing is folded into which, and derives from what… And whether you reference it from the left or the right, so to speak, can make the difference in how you’re perceived. Lists like that one tend to put me off immediately. They may as well say, “Unless you like dropping names like these at *your* coffee shop, we feel sorry for you. Ugh.
we should be a little more deliberate about this, i think:
ed, none of the artists that you name above are simply, as you say at one point, “merde”.
they’ve each made some wonderful songs that any self-respecting songwriter interested tapping the magic of rock’s post-british invasion era would appreciate.
but their problem is that over the course of a larger body of work, they come back to – and then dip WAY below – the mean. this gets them kicked from the pantheon, sure. but let’s not throw out their good works, too, by simply dismissing them altogether.
and can we stop with the indie rock bashing? today’s indie rock is just like the countless, now forgotten bands of the late 60s and early 70s of middling talent, but with some interesting ideas, and having a good time with their rock.
is it the fault of the artists on your list that indie rockers aren’t smart enough to know the difference between a few good songs and a great body of work? of course not. you seem unable to make the distinction yourself.
oh…i wanted to clarify one thing: where i refer to “your list”, ed, I mean YOUR list, not phawker’s. after four names, you say, I could go on.
i say, DO go on.
also, as usual, ed, you’ve come up with a great thread starter. i don’t want that to get lost in my rancor.
and: i though i commented on the “yu” album above, before i hit send, but they got lost in the eternal battle between “cut” and “paste”:
i like it, these bargain bin influences notwithstanding. it’s a dreary day here in philly, and i’m folding laundry. the second song is a nice, warm, stay-at-home and drink tea vibe. like “some velvet morning when i’m straight” after those conflicts have been resolved. but it contains something new, too. it feels like it’s about the now. it doesn’t feel like a museum piece. i’d much rather listen to recordings that sound like this than so much of the canned stuff i hear these days.
in the end, sure, i feel like it’s easy to pick at this stuff for its hipsterisms, but in the end, i’d rather enjoy this music. they seem in earnest.
the third song has a guitar part that absolutely melts as it comes out of the speakers.
they do interesting things with drums that are atypical of the way must drummers approach their instruments, and put across a vibe i like.
Ed clarifies: “The list, tongue in cheek or not, has become a cliched profile with little meaning. Name a Bobbi Gentry song beside her lone hit. Now name it in the same breath as any 3 songs by the Zombies, the VU, Flaming Lips, and Donovan.”
ed, forgive me for saying you’re unable to make the distinction between “a few good songs” and “a great body of work”. clearly, you’re attempting to articulate just that right here.
however, I’d like to suggest that with the zombies, the velvets, you haven’t listened deeply or thoroughly enough. these are bands that i personally think have made enough quality songs and with enough variety to actually be substantial influences. especially the velvets.
but what can i say? you’ll have to take me at my word. it sounds like you’re really missing out on some great stuff.
same with the lips, although since they come later, they may not have been an influence on as many.
Saturnismine, I appreciate your responses. I really do. In your efforts to keep happening and fair minded, I think you’re greatly misunderstanding certain things. For instance, I believe that the bodies of work of the Zombies, the VU, Flaming Lips, and Donovan reign over those of the bands to whom I suggested you try to compare them from that list – with a straight face. Some of the bands in that list are very good, worthy, even great. But the United States of America (the band)? No way do they stack up. It’s one thing if you like that stuff, but how on earth does liking a 7th-rate band add to one’s profile?
Let’s think in terms of putting together your profile for one of those online dating services. One guy describes himself in broad terms – he likes “the outdoors” and “music”; one guy describes himself according to his most intimate quirks – he likes a stated longitude and latitude and “The United States of America.” We all know the first guy is being too broad and the second guy is being too specific, right? At least the first guy has a shot at meeting a mate. The second guy’s list, like this one, is so specific and insular that the best he might do is introduce his right hand to his left hand. You see what I’m saying?
To make matters worse, this list of indie influences has been passed along so often that it’s stale. That’s a big part of what I’m getting at. It’s stale and insincere. They should just hang some of these albums along a hip walkway and let indie rock kids jump up to “high five” them. At a certain point, who’s even hearing that stuff? And it’s jammed down hipsters throats so much anymore that there are likely kids who’ve heard stinking United States of America albums before they’ve heard any number of stone classic album. It’s like drinking Mr. Pibb before you’ve ever tasted Coke or Pepsi. I’m not saying that Coke or Pepsi are better, but danm, develop a baseline first.
I’m pretty sure this will clear things up for you. As for bashing the indie rockers, they were soft from day 1. They should be tough enough to withstand my prodding.
hey dudes!
anybody out there listening to this amy winehouse stuff that comes on after arthur and yu?
pretty boss r and b. i forgot all about her until this popped up on the phawker player.
how does THIS fit into our discussion about influences?
she’s lifting just as shamelessly and encyclopedically from the r and b canon as arthur and yu are from the post-british invasion late 60s and early 70s canon.
however, we might LIKE her better, because she sounds like a cooler chick than the hipster we see at the bar whose very appearance and tastes in clothes / grooming might repulse us.
ed,
we’re not so far apart on this, i figure. but i don’t really care about how people handle the question of influences.
i’ve grown through several states of immaturity on the matter, so i can see both why you’d find wearing one’s influences on one’s sleeve a trifle annoying, but i can also see why people in their twenties do it.
i remember in the mid 80s first meeitng slocum, who’s just a bit older than i am, and being shown in the kindest, most polite of ways by him that in fact, i was NOT the first person in the room to discover the first modern lovers album. that there were lots of us out there, and really, that one album is about all there is, so why grant him genius status?
on the other hand, if people are jazzed by stuff, they’re jazzed by it. good for them.
also, it’s clear now that you ARE admittedly antagonistic towards indie rockers. too bad. i know must of them are smelly and icky and snooty and dmb, but some of them are nice people, too.
i thought of something else:
when talking about their influences, maybe the beatles and the stones were just as annoying to some people as these indie kids are now…
can you imagine the record nerd of the early / mid 60s rolling his eyes while keef goes on and on into a bbc microphone for a grandfatherly reporter about how this or that old blues guy or motown act is the greatest, acting like he and his mates were the only ones who “got ” these cats?
in the end, i say, so what? maybe that’s because i make music, and when i hear a song that blows me away, i’m really stoked, and i’m also willing to give all the credit in the world to the person or people who did it.
Saturn Sez:
i remember in the mid 80s first meeitng slocum, who’s just a bit older than i am, and being shown in the kindest, most polite of ways by him that in fact, i was NOT the first person in the room to discover the first modern lovers album. that there were lots of us out there, and really, that one album is about all there is, so why grant him genius status?
Am I blocking this psychically? Or was that during my pop-tarts and mushrooms phase? In any event, I grant Richman, if not genius status, at least cleanliness, which is next to geniusness. I don’t doubt I was less kind and polite inside than I may have come off! Lucky. Funny, the stuff that comes up here, in group rock therapy…
slocum, funny what we remember and what we don’t around here. just to be clear, there was no sarcasm in my “polite / kind” comment, either. i was lucky to come across you, mr. clean, and ms palmyra delran in those early months of gigging. i was a little twat and you were all generous.
and ed, i really mean it when i say we’re not so far apart on this…
you’ll see we’re dealing with almost the same questions from different ends of the telescope when my psyche piece (now submitted) goes up…
art
Townsman Art, thanks for the psych piece!!! I’m swamped right now, but I should have it up by this evening, if not sooner. A piece on the unfulfilled promise of the motorcycle in rock is also forthcoming as well as other goodies. Thanks for your patience.
While I’m trying to reduce my massive To Do list by a bit, I’m rooting for Art and Ed to find some more common ground. Thanks for keeping at it and keeping it friendly, you two.
.
no hurry, mod.
you have a real knack for sequencing these things so that they relate to one another while not seeming repetetive. put it up whenever you see fit!
blue haired old lady art enthusiasts at the phila museum of art await my rambling lecture on 16th century northern european self-portraiture.
here i go…coffee coffee coffeecoffeeCOFFEEKAWFEE.
Ed your comments about Mr. Pibb were uncalled for. Granted his body of work may not be as large as some others’, but he was consistently good. He came along at a time in my life when Coke and Pepsi just didn’t do it for me anymore. It seemed like maybe I’d built them up to be more important than they really were. Maybe I was just burned out and trying to deal with the pressures of growing up, moving out on my own, and not having access to my parents’ refrigerator anymore.
Anyway I saw an ad for Mr. Pibb in a copy of Trouser Press that someone had left behind at the laundromat. I managed to locate a can (you couldn’t find a whole six-pack back then), and it really hit me hard. I felt like I had rediscovered some small hint of what soft drinks were really all about.
Never intended to be to everyone’s taste, Mr. Pibb will always be special to me, and apparently to a few other people as well. Try Dr. Pepper Berries and Cream and tell me you can’t sense a little influence. I would warn you against Mr. Pibb Xtra, though. It’s just not as good as the original, and I don’t think I’m being nostalgic.
BigSteve comes through with the Post of the Week!
Did anyone notice that the melody for the opening lines of the first song was lifted from Lady Godiva’s Operation?