One of the Three Good Ones
Sorry for the hit-and-run, but I got shit to do today. I just want to go on record as saying that the ABBA revisionism of the last couple of decades — this notion that Bjorn and Benny (or whatever their names were) were flawless practitioners of high pop craftsmanship — is utter horseshit. Most of their stuff was aggravating, stupid, overproduced, and a blight on AM pop radio when it was released, and nothing has changed in the last 30 years as far as I can see. It still sucks!
Actually, I take that back. It doesn’t all suck. ABBA did in fact deliver two Great Pop Songs in “Waterloo” and “Dancing Queen”, and one pretty good one in “Does Your Mother Know”. But the rest of the catalog? Absolute crap. “Fernando”? CRAP. “Money, Money Money”? TOTAL CRAP. “Take a Chance On Me”? UNBELIEVABLE CRAP. “The Winner Takes It All”? GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK — WHAT KIND OF RIGHT-THINKING ADULT STILL LISTENS TO THIS SHIT?!
Sheesh.
What about “S.O.S.”?!?
Is this Hrundi’s beat-up-on-pop-bands week?
I eagerly await The Great 48’s response to this thread.
I don’t think we’ve ever been in more righteous agreement about anything, Hrrundi. Bravo!
And “S.O.S.” is the missing “half” great song. So I’ll go with 3 1/2 great songs by ABBA. I think there’s a lot of exoticerotica fueling ABBA’s glorification outside of any country that actually produces more than a handful of citizens who stand less than 6 feet tall and have dark hair and even dark complexions.
Oats asks:
What about “S.O.S.”?!?
I answer:
CRAP!
Okay, I see that hrunndi is the backlash to the revisionism. I might even be on his side if I understood the revisionism in the first place. I’m asking a real historical question here: what people or entities were originally responsible for the revisionism? Mr. Mod makes some incomplete hints, but I’d like a fuller answer if anyone’s got one.
I agree with your point 100% Hrrundi but my fav ABBA song is S.O.S. Excellent Chorus!
When I was in Reno a few weeks ago, they had a show that looked like it was mostly ABBA. You guys seem to like 3 to 3 1/2 songs more than me. I thought those guys were made in the factory that makes everything else soccer moms love, like Lincoln Navigators and three dollar cups of coffee.
Townsman Mwall, I recall it dating back to at least Costello’s Armed Forces. He spoke in many interviews of the band having been listening to an ABBA album while on tour for This Year’s Model, if memory serves. The band began recording its third album in a similar vein, but they felt like they were rehashing things. Then Steve Neive started playing piano parts along the lines of the part in “Dancing Queen” (check out “Accidents Will Happen”, for example). So ABBA helped point The Attractions in a new direction.
Perhaps others were leading this revisionism as well. I recall a legendary Musician magazine sitdown with Joe Strummer and Robert Fripp in which they raved over the genius of ABBA! It was right after that issue of Musician that I found $1 copies of the two ABBA greatest hits collections, only to ever listen to the 3 1/2 great songs.
See how it all comes back to The Clash, Costello, The Beatles, ZZ Top, ELO, and Prince? Will some future version of RTH be loaded with participants poring over interviews with the GI Joe hat-wearing singer of Modest Mouse?
Oh, c’mon man! I just ordered Gold thru yourmusic.com. Fuck you guys.
Now for a *serious* answer to mwall’s question: I can only cite two examples off the top of my head, but U2 performed a retarded version of “Dancing Queen” a few huge tours ago. And at the opposite end of the spectrum, Marshall Crenshaw used to sing ABBA songs (maybe he still does) at his live gigs. But these are the tip of the revisionist iceberg, I assure you. Come on — you don’t know any asshole music nerds who have a so-out-they-must-be-in fetish for this band?
Hrrundi, I thought you had stuff to do today. A question hangs in the balance for you. Don’t pass it by, all right?
I want to assure folks logging in today that no members of ABBA have been seen in the Halls of Rock. Feel safe in discussing their works candidly. I understand you can’t always be sure who’s watching with the company we keep.
Townsman Hrrundi wrote:
What do you mean to infer, that my detailed response to Mwall was somehow not serious? If so, I’m a bit hurt but, more importantly, pissed at you for making such an inference without first doing your homework. What I said was true, or at least as true as my memory allowed. I’m deadly serious about everything but the being pissed part – well, the rock nerd in me is a little pissed:)
Wow, Mod — if all that shit is true, then… well, my goodness. And my apologies.
Thanks, guys. That sounds like some serious cred backing up the revisionism. Mystifying.
Honestly, I personally know no one who has ever tried to foist the “ABBA’s so uncool it’s cool” shtick on me.
So, are there really any KEY moves in those 3 1/2 good songs? Or is there really nothing there? What was it in specific musically, if anything, that brought this praise? Or is it just about the ABBA aura (which would be what?)
Perhaps ABBA is the epitome of the Greatest Hits collection genre. What I like about ABBA is the glam rock riffs, uptempo beats, and sexual tension that runs through their best material.
And I do remember O Mighty Isis doing a killer cover of “Knowing Me, Knowing You.”
Second wave Stiff band Any Trouble (Clive Gregson’s first band) released a live cover of Name of the Game around 1979/80, introducing it as a song by “my favorite band.” I like their version, but as fas as ABBA is concerned I think Dancing Queen is genius and you can have the rest.
We’re cool, Hrrundi. I’m flattered that you thought I’d be that good pulling the wool over Mwall’s keen eyes, and more importantly, I’m right behind you on this post.
You don’t know a good time until you’ve been in a Vienna nightclub full of drunk Austrians singing every word to the ABBA songs that “Bjorn Again” were cranking out…good times, good times…
I think you need to be an EU citizen to “get” ABBA. They are so revered over there.
Here’s the smoking gun Musician interview Mod was referring to:
http://www.elephant-talk.com/wiki/Interview_with_Robert_Fripp_and_Joe_Strummer_in_Musician
Count me in on the revisionist backlash, or however we want to phrase this phenomenon. If the Captain were a hot Swedish woman would Captain and Tennille also get this revisionist parade? It takes two to tango, and those Abba women had it in spades.
I think this thread is merely proof that Hrrundi is, as we always suspected, far more interested in Look than sound. And since ABBA’s Look was undeniably atrocious, he remains blissfully unaware of the rich pop goodness of the sound. It’s not his fault. However, it does make it utterly pointless to discuss the sound with him, and therefore I’m not even going to try.
Was it anything like being in a Buffalo bar full of drunk Buffalonian actors just come from their plays and singing every word to “I Love New York,” “It’s a Wonderful World,” and “Crazy”?
Sometimes, I swear I do the blockquote thing right and it comes out screwed up.
I fixed it for you, Mwall.
48, there are others of us here who might be interested in your take on ABBA from a music-only standpoint.
I think Bjorn and Benny had some skill as melodists (not a big deal for me) and also as architects of impressive backing tracks, using standard rock instrumentation along with synths and strings. It’s just that the chicks always sounded like robots and they sucked all the life out of the tracks. The clockwork arrangements seem to appeal to Europeans (and they appealed to Elvis and Nick Lowe during the recording of Armed Forces), but they leave me cold.
Maybe a Swedish group supposed to leave me cold?
Yep! Just like that!
I’m glad someone mentioned “Knowing Me, Knowing You.” That’s a solid winner. “Mamma Mia” is a sleeper too.
Other than the gems mentioned before, I can take or leave ABBA. I don’t think anyone’s stumping for ABBA as a deep-catalog addition to the canon. But those four or five songs were great. Not just good; great.
I think the ABBA revisionist love is itself a backlash: No group except perhaps the Starland Vocal Band were more irredeemably, inextricably tied in with the ’70s as ABBA, and so they were virulently hated for much of the ’80s for not much more reason than they are retrospectively loved now. And “Hey, they weren’t that bad” turned into “Hey, they were great!”
By the way, that Fripp/Strummer interview is not exactly enlightening.
Exactly! It was supposed to evoke what people who had never seen a Bergman movie thought Bergman movies were like.
I’m only sort of kidding. Except for the exuberant “Waterloo,” I think there was supposed to be a chilly emotional remove.
Rick/others: you’re right, I gotta give it up for “Knowing Me, Knowing You” — that’s a pretty good song. So that makes two Great Pop Songs and two pretty good ones, and, if Mod is to be agreed with, one-half of a good song in “S.O.S.”, which I don’t care for, but he’s the Moderator, so we have to kiss his ass every once in a while. Four and a half good songs does not a Great Pop Band make.
I don’t mind the robotic singing and the Absolut whiteness of the whole affair; I just wish they had a few more songs I could love. Some of the other stuff people are throwing around I can handle with a raised eyebrown, but if that’s all there is I might as well listen to Neil Sedaka’s Greatest Hits.
“Dancing Queen” is fantastic. I get misty-eyed listening to it. “Waterloo” is a lot of fun. I love the pinky rock-based chorus.
Townsman Meanstom wrote:
Perhaps. Would this new Captain still be wearing the sailor’s cap?
Thanks for finding that Fripp-Strummer link!
Well, to start with, melody is in fact pretty important for me, and Bjorn and Benny wrote many excellent ones, so that’s a big part of the appeal for me.
As for the “robotic” aspect, as Massimo comes close to pointing out, the emotions behind most of their later songs, including many of the singles, tend towards the dark. (Seriously, huge swaths of all of the albums after ARRIVAL are just fucking bleak: uncoincidentally, that’s also when the two marriages started cracking up.)
I mean, hands up: who here can tell me what the subject matter of “Knowing Me, Knowing You” is? Just straight up, what is the song about? It’s a song about giving up a relationship for dead, not because you hate the other person and want to get out, but because you know that the two of you are never going to be on the same page. Delivering that lyric in a chipper, perky voice would be all wrong.
But singing it with an androidal lack of emotion would be all wrong too, as is singing it as a female duet.
You’re right, BigSteve. It would be wrong to sing “Knowing Me, Knowing You” as a female duet. Which, er, is why Frida takes the lead vocal by herself, with Agnetha singing harmonies.
Serious question: how many of the “robotic, emotionless” crowd think the vocals were sung in phonetic English?
I ask because I once had a conversation with a former rock critic — someone whose name has come up here — who swore up and down that he had “heard somewhere” that ABBA sang their vocals in phonetic English, despite my assertions to the contrary, which were far more factually based.
So Great 48, I’m glad you raised the phonetic issue. I’d ALWAYS heard that was the case with them. I can’t ask this question from the “robotic, emotionless” crowd, mind you, because that’s something I like about ABBA. Considering that I’ve never met a Scandanavian person who’s not more fluent in English than 25% of the American population, I’ve always had trouble believing they didn’t know at least some English. Is that what you’re saying is the case?
Considering the groundbreaking news you reported that much of ABBA’s lyrics was about taboo subjects like heartbreak and depression, I did want to raise issue with your contention that there was no other way the songs could have been sung. If that’s indeed what you were saying, I would like to officially call bullshit on you. Plenty of songs about bleak subjects are sung with more expression, and plenty of them work fine. ABBA had their style and they stuck with it. I don’t think they deserve any more credit or blame for going with what worked for them, what was natural for them. Most likely, I’ll learn that one of the two women sang like Janis Joplin before joining ABBA, but they found a formula that worked. My question is, do you really like more than a handful of their songs? I think it’s easy to like as many as a half dozen, but more than that? Are there deep cuts you would recommend?
You miss my point: I’m merely saying that there’s a greater emotional range in ABBA’s music than their popular image of dreadfully clothed marionettes would imply.
And yes, all four members of ABBA speak fluent English: it’s a compulsory subject in Swedish schools.
There’s, let’s see, 53 different ABBA songs in my iTunes folder. So yeah, there are deep cuts. I just don’t think they would change the minds that are already made up.
I didn’t “miss” your point. I was aware of the fact that I may not have gotten all of it. If you’re gonna Pince Nez me, have the right prescription:) Thanks for the explanation.
Re: “plenty of songs about bleak subjects are sung with more expression”
What songs do you have in mind? I myself prefer understatement to overstatement. In fact, I think there’s more emotional charge, in say a Bergman film than in a Tarantino film.
Dr. John, it’s not what either of us “prefer,” but the fact that there’s more than one way to skin a cat. And leave Tarantino out of this, at least in terms of anything I have said. I can’t stand that guy.
I’ll ask again: what songs do a good job of vocally expressing bleak subject matter?
Really, I do believe there’s a valuable learning moment here.
Dr. John wrote:
If I were to suggest something in response, you’d then argue that the subject matter was not actually bleak. I don’t believe that particular emotions need to be expressed according to particular conventions or tones. Hell, you’re the big fan of Neil Young’s On the Beach – does the apocalyptic “Revolution Blues” (I think that’s the title) count as “bleak”? Neil’s not understating anything in that song.
How about Linda Thompson singing “Down Where The Drunkards Role”?
What a great thread. As for my own personal take on Abba, my opinion is similar to that of Big Steve. I love “Dancing Queen” and I also like “Take a Chance on Me” (at least melodically), but I’ve never really warmed up to any other song I’ve ever heard by them. Perhaps it’s the fashion sense or the arrangements or the “robotic” (though thanks to Stewart for debunking that “phonetic” English myth; I’ve also never met a German or Dutch person who doesn’t have better command of the English language than many Americans and that includes several I work with currently; I would apply it to Scandinavians as well) vocals or perhaps something else, but it’s just never *clicked* for me. Believe me, I’ve tried, mainly due to EC’s fandom (thanks for bringing up that “Oliver’s Army” keyboard line which was inspired by “Dancing Queen”) as well as that of other Stiff artists (like Any Trouble).
Oh and the Abba song that Marshall Crenshaw (another avowed fan) used to do live is “Knowing Me, Knowing You”. I think I have it on my hard drive at home. I’ll check tonight.
Also, they’re hugely popular in Australia. I think there’s even an internationally popular Abba tribute band that’s from there, though I could be wrong.
Also, more recently Joe Boyd has spoken out on behalf of Abba. In his excellent book White Bicycles: Making Music in the ’60s, he recalls meeting Benny and Bjorn when they were aspiring songwriters in the very early ’70s and being taken by some of their material (I think they’d given him a demo). He never explicitly admits to being a fan, however.
Good one, MWall. There’s probably a bunch of Richard and Linda Thompson songs that could be named.
And the same goes for Neil Young. I’m thinking, in particular, of “Mellow My Mind,” where his voice cracks.