Rock collaborations between major artists can result in fantastic outcomes. I’m not talking about rock’s legendary one-shot duets, such as Ja-Bo or “Ebony and Ivory,” but full-blown collaborations or instances in which one established artist produces a slightly less-established artist. I would think that fans of one artist or another may feel that their favorite in the collaboration either lifted his or her collaborator by the bootstraps or, if the favorite artist was the perceived submissive partner in the collaboration, been held down or otherwise tainted by the more-popular partner. Following are just some collaborations. You tell me which artist benefitted most from the collaboration, which artist suffered, or if the collaboration was a rare case of a win-win partnership. In other words: Who wins? Who loses? Feel free to focus your thoughts on any one of these pairs. Feel free to call in a new pair for discussion. I expect we will have some initial disagreement.
- David Bowie and Iggy Pop
- Robert Plant and Alison Krauss
- Lee Hazelwood and Nancy Sinatra
- Eric Clapton and Duane Allman
- Robert Fripp and Brian Eno
- David Bowie and Brian Eno
- Jimmy Page and Paul Rodgers
- Buckingham-Nicks and Fleetwood Mac
- Daryl Hall and Robert Fripp
- Lou Reed and David Bowie
- Brian Eno and Talking Heads
- Nick Lowe and Dave Edmunds
- Jefferson Airplane and Papa John Creach
- Bob Dylan and The Band
- U2 and Brian Eno/Daniel Lanois
- Tom Petty and Jeff Lynne
- David Bowie and Mott the Hoople
- Frank Zappa and Captain Beefheart
- Brian Eno and Coldplay
I look forward to your responses.
How about Emmylou and Gram? Or Gram and Emmylou?
TB
Good one, TB. Maybe this was a rare Win-Win.
David Byrne and the B-52’s. I believe the half-album that resulted makes us the winners, because the participants sure don’t think much of it.
I love Mesopotamia too, eh. I don’t get why it’s looked down on.
I’m only going to tackle a few of these:
* David Bowie and Iggy Pop
Oddly I think Bowie benefitted at the expense of Iggy in the long run. He got the cred from producing those albums, career-long inspiration from Iggy too, and Iggy got saddled with those two albums that are great but uncharacteristic and so became a kind of albatross for him.
* Robert Fripp and Brian Eno
Win-win. Eno got some good guitar plyaing on a few of his records, Fripp got the Frippertronics methodology, which he’s been able to use as a career niche, and still both of them retained strong enough identities that they’re not tied to each other.
* Jimmy Page and Paul Rodgers
Lose-lose. Rodgers keeps Page from doing anything special, and Page doesn’t challenge Rodgers to break out of his boring comfort zone.
* Lou Reed and David Bowie
In a way Lou loses, because he has a hit but it’s on one of his least interesting (to me anyway) albums. Bowie wins in the same way he did with Iggy.
* Nick Lowe and Dave Edmunds
Win-win. Perfectly matched, each one bringing out the other’s strengths and covering for his weaknesses.
* Bob Dylan and The Band
Too complex to reduce to a few sentences. In a way I think Dylan wins, and the Band loses. Dylan was able to apply the lessons he learned from the Band to great effect, but, though the Band got fame, in a way they got turned away from their strengths (this I guess is taking Levon’s side).
* Frank Zappa and Captain Beefheart
In retrospect a bad match. In a way I don’t think Zappa ever understood who Beefheart was, and Beefheart suffered from being associated with the Zappa freak show.
I’ll offer one I think is a win-win — John Cale and Patti Smith, which falls into the category of “one established artist produces a slightly less-established artist.” You could make a case for Cale-Stooges too. Did Cale ever produce a bad record? The first Squeeze album maybe?
what about Pete Townshend and Ronnie Lane? Is “rough mix” overrated or underrated? Sometimes it’s hard to tell, but putting the critical “weather reports” aside, I think that’s a nice album that allows the songwriting approaches of both guys to flourish.
Good stuff, BigSteve. You’ve identified a trend I’ve supected regarding with Bowie’s collaborations. I like how you frame the Band-Dylan partnership as well, and yes, beside that Squeeze album, Cale almost always looks good in a collaboration. I’d add his album with Eno to that list. My wife can’t stand Cale on his own but likes him a lot when he works with others.
The Townshend-Lane collaboration is a tough one to figure. It’s a decent enough album, but I’m not sure that it freed either man to carry on without the more pompous partner from his day job.
Big Steve said:
snip
and Iggy got saddled with those two albums that are great but uncharacteristic and so became a kind of albatross for him.
Big Steve, I’m curious, how were these an albatross or sorts for Iggy? I may have heard but don’t recall. Do you mean in a commercial way?
More Cale. What about The Modern Lovers? This isn’t the pairing Mod is looking for per The Modern Lovers were not even known at the time. But it always seemed interesting to me in that Cale’s involvement ultimately gave the album some kind of cult punkish status and yet Richmond always hated the album. So a win for street creed but perhaps a personal loss for Richmond.
Regarding Levon: He’s GREAT!
(I did some RTH homework)
Richman’s “personal loss” was my personal gain:) I may have to put together a post that specifically addresses an aspect of what you refer to, underthefloat.
I think with Bowie and Iggy, “The Idiot” counts as Bowie imprinting himself on Pop and “Lust for Life” is the other way around.
Mod said: Richman’s “personal loss” was my personal gain.:)
Oh, I was guessing that would be true for many! I’d love to see your next thread!
Until then…Naturally, I love some of his solo output and think he put on a terrific and yes, goofy live show. That said, I’m not at all sure how to defend him related to the prior “growth” vs. being stuck discussion. He’s been kind of like an seven year old for the last 30+ years and somehow that’s ok with me. 🙂
But, then again, I can’t say that I need more then a few of his discs.
I think with Bowie and Iggy, “The Idiot” counts as Bowie imprinting himself on Pop and “Lust for Life” is the other way around.
Interesting take and that makes sense to me. Oddly, I’ve was a Bowie fan back in the day and yet I like “Lust for Life” a lot more then “The Idiot”.
# David Bowie and Iggy Pop
As the resident Bowie defender/apologist, I see the issue this way: Iggy is practically the textbook artist with little to no “room to grow,” but Bowie actually gave him some.
# Robert Plant and Alison Krauss
Plant wins, as he gets to release a non-Zep album in 2008 that the mainstream pays attention to. Krauss already has more plaudits and Grammys than she knows what to do with, so this is a victory lap.
# Eric Clapton and Duane Allman
Duane wins, for pushing Clapton to play like he has something to prove. Clapton loses, because he has to go on to an increasingly boring solo career.
# Buckingham-Nicks and Fleetwood Mac
Everybody wins, especially the coke dealer!
# Brian Eno and Talking Heads
Both win. Talking Heads get to become incredibly sonically interesting; Eno gets to prove he can make challenging music that’s also popular.
# Nick Lowe and Dave Edmunds
Slight edge to Edmunds. He really needed someone who could write songs, so he wasn’t stuck with Fogerty covers and the link his whole career. The addition of better guitar-playing helped Lowe, but I don’t think he needed it.
# Bob Dylan and The Band
I actually think The Band wins, by getting to play with a real songwriter and getting to join rock-nerd royalty. Does Levon think he’d really want to play jukejoints his entire life. I like Barney Hoskyns’ quote: “He’s a lovely man, but his hatred of Robertson is detrimental to his health.”
# Tom Petty and Jeff Lynne
Both win. Petty gets to work with someone with a keen pop sense. Lynne gets to work with someone capable to conveying human emotion in his music.
# David Bowie and Mott the Hoople
Mott wins. Would anyone other than hardcore vinyl junkies remember them if not for “All the Young Dudes”?
Well played, Oats! I especially like what you point out about the benefits Iggy reaped from Bowie. A novel take in this hallowed hall.
I think what I mean about Iggy is that, when you look at his entire body of work, those two albums really seem like a detour. Unfortunately though, they’re a really cool detour, but one that he can’t ever go down again. A certain kind of Iggy fan wishes he’d make albums like that again, and he sort of tried for a while, Zombie Birdhouse being maybe his best attempt, until he reverted to a more Stooges-like approach and then to the Stooges per se.
What would Iggy’s career be like if he hadn’t made those albums. Would he still be, you know, Iggy, because people like Lester Bangs had already talked up The Stooges sufficiently? Or would he be more on the level of someone like Rob Tyner? I’m legitimately asking this, not just being a smart-ass.
Bowie gave iggy room to grow, but what did he do with it?
what does “on the level of someone like Rob Tyner” mean? I’m not being antagonistic, I’m just not sure which level or which context you’re talking about. do you mean he would have less fame, like Rob Tyner, or would appear as limited to us as Tyner does?
as RTH’s resident tyner apologist, i wants ta know!
How about Martin Newell & Andy Partridge?
Andy’s production of The Greatest Living Englishman helped get Martin the notice that he deserved.
Where is the love for Upper Darby? I think a case could be made for Todd Rundgren and the pile of records that he produced. In many cases he was a gun for hire and obviously did a number of them for the money to fund his addiction to silly stage props for the Utopia live show.
The good: XTC, Psychedelic Furs, The Tubes
Rock Crime: Bat out of Hell
I think Lee / Nancy is a win win: with that ugly mug, noone would’ve ever paid attention to him as a performer if he hadn’t teamed with such a hot babe. And Nancy definitely needed someone whose songwriting sensibilities could form a bridge from the older generation’s Martini and Skinny Necktie aesthetic to something a little…dustier and hipper.
the photon band’s drummer will wholeheartedly disagree with this, and i’ll get flack for it at our next rehearsal, but i think tom petty’s association with Jeff Lynne definitely left Petty worse for wear. I don’t think he’s recovered since. His much heralded returns to a rawer aesthetic have pleased die-hard’s only. And don’t give me this “Lynne gave him a pop sensibility” hokum. His pre-Lynne songs are all we need to know about how keen Petty’s pop sensibility already was.
Hey Saturn, I just meant “less fame.” I was imagining Iggy being considered an integral element of a groundbreaking band, not an icon (or brand, at this point) in and of himself? Which I suppose one could say about Tyner, right?
Nick Lowe and His Cowboy Outfit: definitely lose lose. Nick looked silly in that thing, and the older he got, the more stretched and worn out it became.
And don’t give me this “Lynne gave him a pop sensibility” hokum. His pre-Lynne songs are all we need to know about how keen Petty’s pop sensibility already was.
I should have clarified. I was thinking more from a production standpoint. I think Jimmy Iovine was really good at making things sound boring and blandly radio-ready. He helped perfect the classic-rock-radio aesthetic. Lynne’s got his sonic crutches, but they’re kept to a minimum on Full Moon Fever, and they’re more likely to allow something interesting to happen on a record. Just my opinion, this.
Of course, Petty also worked with Dave Stewart previously. But that’s guy no Jeff Lynne!
His much heralded returns to a rawer aesthetic have pleased die-hard’s only.
Oh, and i disagree with this. Wildflowers was Petty’s return to simpler sounds after the overproduction of Into the Great Wide Open and it was a huge hit.
“Wildflowers was Petty’s return to simpler sounds after the overproduction of Into the Great Wide Open and it was a huge hit.”
‘huge’ may be overstating it. ‘you don’t know how it feels’ was a bitchin’ tune that got alot of classic rock radio airplay, and it’s simpler, for sure, but to the rabid petty fan, it probably doesn’t sound all that different from ‘into the great wide open’. they’re both slow, lazy songs with that drawl that marks petty’s late period. i think it has Lynne damage written all over it, in a way i’m not explaining very clearly (or able to explain as i sit here on the phone with a very talky mortgage re-finance agent…good GOD i wish she’d shut the fuck up and just tell me the rate for my new loan).
and either way, it doesn’t really make much of an argument for petty benefitting greatly from his partnership with Lynne.
I meant to say “but to anyone besides the rabid petty fan, [you don’t know how it feels] doesn’t sound all that different from ‘into the great wide open [or other mid to late period tom petty stuff].”
berkery would be a better guy to comment on this stuff…man, he’d bury me for writing these blasphemes…
With Bowie’s patronage, Iggy, Mott the Hoople, and probably even Lou Reed would have been known only to the likes of us rock nerds. We’d be arguing over whether the reissues on the likes of Sundazed were helped or hurt by the remastering of that guy E. Pluribus Gergely can’t stand – I’m blanking on his name now.
Aesthetically, although I think Raw Power was harmed by Bowie and James Williamson, I am coming around to agreeing that the solo albums Bowie produced for Iggy, in which – Paul McCartney giving “Come and Get It” to Badfinger – he essentially told Iggy to imitate him, were a lifeline for an artist who had NOWHERE to go. Subsequent Iggy albums confirm that, if you ask me. He got caught up in his Iggy persona and had nowhere to go with it. In retrospect he would have been better off fronting a more humble, hard-working garage band like The Cramps or The Original Sins.
Mott the Hoople probably would have continued to make uneven albums without Bowie – a couple of great rockers punctuated by some needle-lifter ballads and rockin’ workouts – but “All the Young Dudes” gave the band focus for the public and encapsulated just about all they could do so well when they were clicking. The song got them in the game and helped them better refine their following great songs. (I’m bad on knowing the chronology of their ’70s records because I first learned them through the classic hits album. This statement assumes that “All the Way from Memphis” – the band’s highpoint – came after “All the Young Dudes”.)
“Walk on the Wild Side” is an always fascinating single, if you ask me, up there with Bowie’s best solo productions. The song has fascinated me since childhood. The rest of that album is kind of weak, but again, Bowie helped get Lou in the game, in the major leagues, and for those reasons alone Lou benefited.
Whether Bowie benefited or not is trickier, I think. Although his work with each of these artists points out how good his taste was and therefore add cool points to his tally, most of us agree that he didn’t actually produce the artists’ best records. Also, because each of these artists possess “animalistic” qualities that Bowie’s not known for possessing, his work with them can reflect poorly on his own shortcomings. I’m not saying this is fair, but I think it plays into some of the bully tactics some people around here have been known to pull on the man.
Of course, Bowie just as much benefited from the contrast between his own, high-class work and the long pedestrian stretches by his subject.
Tricky.
My two cents on the Lynne-Petty partnership: I think Jeff Lynne is the perfect producer to call in when an artist who doesn’t have a lot to say and who doesn’t like to stretch out too far is in need of a cushion for maintaining the status quo. To me, that’s what he did so well for Petty as well as George Harrison. His method doesn’t work for all artists, though, but I think it got both of those guys through points when they were about to become musically irrelevant.
“Whether Bowie benefited or not is trickier, I think.”
yeah, it’s complicated. it would be an oversimplification to say that his associations with these guys didn’t hurt him in any way, only because it may have had the opposite of the intended effect:
bowie tries to get something like ‘street cred’ out of bringing these acts to light (arguable, too), but it backfires because his juxtaposition with them makes it clear that he’s not in possession of some of the “animalistic” qualities they possess.
Terrific list, although I would add a few others. At the top of my list is Dylan and the Dead. Also Clapton/Winwood and Pete Townshend/Ronnie Lane.
Mod writes: “Jeff Lynne is the perfect producer to call in when an artist who doesn’t have a lot to say and who doesn’t like to stretch out too far is in need of a cushion for maintaining the status quo. To me, that’s what he did so well for Petty as well as George Harrison. His method doesn’t work for all artists, though, but I think it got both of those guys through points when they were about to become musically irrelevant.”
I write: that’s a satisfactory description to me. i would only add that if *that’s* how petty benefitted from his partnership with Lynne, then it’s a pretty damning benefit.
A Townsman already covered Townshend and Lane earlier in the comments, rockandrollguru, but Clapton and Winwood is a great one to examine. I like what they did together. In fact, this gets me thinking that both of them worked best within collaborations with other strong personalities. I’d say they were a rare win-win.
Speaking of “win,” it’s getting WINDY here! A branch just fell on my skylight – I looked up expecting to see a big crack.
I would add
Dave Edmunds & The Stray Cats
Their best work was the records they did together (Dave producing)
Also, The Searchers and Birch/Wicks (The Records) for that double-shot of Sire albums. Win-win with a slight edge to the producers, since The Searchers may not have benefitted so much careerwise in the long run.
who would’ve benefitted the most from the projected michael stipe / kurt cobain co-lab that never was?
i think stipe benefitted from the mere post suicide mention that kurt was looking forward to working with him.
“i think stipe benefitted from the mere post suicide mention that kurt was looking forward to working with him.”
…Despite there being inarguable proof that Cobain would have rather died than work with Stipe…
dbus, i had actually written something along those lines…something like, “for cobain perhaps it was the prospect of working with stipe that made him off himself.” but i wanted to see who would write that instead! you win…absolutely nothing! except my praise and narcissistic admiration.
I think Ronnie Lane is one of music’s unsung heroes (Anyone see the doc called The Passing Show?). Ultimately, I think that Lane benefitted from the collaboration just because it probably gave him greater exposure since Townshend was the bigger star and likely the drawing power to the sales of that record. And yes, I think the record is quite nice on its own.
TB
I just walked into the cafeteria here at work and there was a remix of Don’t Stop Belivin’ by Journey. It was that exact same recording except that it had a pulsing disco beat mixed really loudly on top of it.
Now that’s win-win.
Kurt Cobain & the shotgun.
Everybody wins! I only wished he had waited for Courtney to get home, so she could have had the first taste o’ hot lead.
To paraphrase Public Enemy; “Kurt Cobain was a hero to many/but he never meant shit to me”.